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  1. #16
    Real Fake Gold Member DarkosOverlord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by VoidGear. View Post
    0.2's main story issue is that it doesn't offer much story at all. The game tries to make Aqua a more believable character and give her character more depth, but - in my eyes - fails miserably. Okay, well, she's not as bad as in BBS, but that's pretty hard to match anyway.
    I'm not against games that mostly develop characters. Reverse/Rebirth did the exact same thing - but in the exact opposite way. We see Riku understand his flaws and mistakes, his desperate fight to prove himself worthy of returning to the people he loves, and trying to set things right. He grows. He changes.
    We do see Aqua struggle with her own issues for a change, too, instead of just being the mom to run after Terra and Ven. That's cool, she needs that. However the execution is not good at all. It doesn't develop her character (and when it does, like the Phantom Aqua fight, it's ruined again immediately afterwards by her going full "lol I just beat my inner demon and found my reason to fight. Oh, illusions of Terra and Ven, my F R I E N D S, remember how they were all I was relevant for in BBS? Yeah, watch them be my plothole now" and deciding that she doesn't care if she's chasing them in vain after all. It renders the whole part about her fighting "herself" and her doubts right before that entirely useless).
    She doesn't grow, she doesn't change, all she finds is her reason to fight, and that's mostly when she finds Mickey and realizes there is probably some way for her to get out eventually. It has nothing to do with her overcoming her issues or questioning her own previous choices and trying to do better.
    That's true, a small step forward doesn't mean complete improvement.
    Another reason why I think the last third of the game didn't need to be there: it makes seem like all that personal struggles up til that point were just filler.
    Aqua was left floating in the Darkness after learning Xehanort was still active and her friends in danger, but when she wakes up Mickey is there talking about keys and doors and whatnot so let's follow him in this sidequest and let's put all that other boring personal stuff aside
    It's not like Aqua questioning herself and what to do was important or something, after all she's just another figurine waiting to be collected by the main cast

  2. #17
    KH ☼ D&D ☼ Music ☼ Wack. GronoTRIGGERED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    I will give 0.2 this, though; it might have the best Terra speaking scene in any of these games ever. I actually really liked and cared about him this time around, and it actually broke my heart when I realized what had happened after his hair turned white. The cool thing is they didn't just play it as "another trick of the darkness" or anything, either; he actually got repossessed by Xehanort and lost control of his body again. That scene where he strangles him and later when he screams "ENOUGH!" is just so good and especially needed for his character, which I thought was more than lacking in his original game.

    While I understand how and why that scene wouldn't have continued on from there, and I actually agree with the decision to cut to Mickey after it, it does suck how we don't really see as much of Ven as maybe we were led to believe this time around.

    Oh, and one very small thing that I'm sure nobody but me probably cared about. It always bothered me how Xemnas completely knew about Aqua's "special knowledge" that she got when she was anointed to master, since technically Terra himself should not have been privy to knowing about the Chamber of Waking. There was always the possibility that maybe Xehanort knew about it (he probably just knew the name), but with the way their previous master set their relationship up it seemed like everything was set up so that Xehanort could never get to that point, and that he would need something like Eraqus attempting to kill Ventus to sneak in and destroy The Land of Departure. Knowing that Aqua had to let him know exactly where Ventus was hiding made me feel like he wouldn't just be following a false trail, and made me feel like Xehanort actually had some footing in his goal instead of just "knowing" where he was.

    Also, is it just the Master's Defender that can unlock the Land of Departure? Because, if not, then Xehanort could have just opened up the heart of the world himself and destroyed it that way. Ugh, this is confusing. I love this series though

  3. #18
    ✧ G L A M A Z O N ✧ Rydgea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    0.2 is mostly style, no substance unfortunately. You would think the concept, being diluted from whole book to prologue, would have tight storytelling. Yet, Aqua's would-be-development is little improved. I might be one of the few who actually found her more believable in BBS. I also found Mickey's presence muddying up the storyline rather than enhancing it.

    However, one of my least favorite moments was when the base Demon Tide organize to push Aqua through the pin-sized door back to DI. I literally died from the stinky cheese.

    There were also many other cool elements they could have implemented but didn't. I'd been lusting after the IDEA of being able to explore a twisted version of Cinderella's castle since the Secret Ending of BBS -Final Mix-. So, blue balls there. Then they didn't even properly translate the rigid, angular art direction of the Sleeping Beauty film in Enchanted Dominion like they had with the original BBS. Hell, if all you're really doing here is just showing off your graphic's muscles, making us believe in your Kingdom Shader or whatever it is, do your due diligence. I'm still not completely sold on the character models either, personally, but then you're going to water down the iconic backgrounds?

    Listen though, even with all the nitpicks, the gameplay (note, most important aspect of a game) is pretty fun! I like playing 0.2. Just don't expect much anything from the narrative.

  4. #19
    KH ☼ D&D ☼ Music ☼ Wack. GronoTRIGGERED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydgea View Post
    0.2 is mostly style, no substance unfortunately. You would think the concept, being diluted from whole book to prologue, would have tight storytelling. Yet, Aqua's would-be-development is little improved. I might be one of the few who actually found her more believable in BBS. I also found Mickey's presence muddying up the storyline rather than enhancing it.

    However, one of my least favorite moments was when the base Demon Tide organize to push Aqua through the pin-sized door back to DI. I literally died from the stinky cheese.

    There were also many other cool elements they could have implemented but didn't. I'd been lusting after the IDEA of being able to explore a twisted version of Cinderella's castle since the Secret Ending of BBS -Final Mix-. So, blue balls there. Then they didn't even properly translate the rigid, angular art direction of the Sleeping Beauty film in Enchanted Dominion like they had with the original BBS. Hell, if all you're really doing here is just showing off your graphic's muscles, making us believe in your Kingdom Shader or whatever it is, do your due diligence. I'm still not completely sold on the character models either, personally, but then you're going to water down the iconic backgrounds?

    Listen though, even with all the nitpicks, the gameplay (note, most important aspect of a game) is pretty fun! I like playing 0.2. Just don't expect much anything from the narrative.
    I mean, to be fair, the level design for enchanted dominion in 0.2 is so much improved from the original. BbS had a couple of spots of platforming in their version of the world, but nothing in there was nearly as deep and enthralling as it was exploring that straight darkness jungle leading up to the darkside rush.

    I don't even care if the art design isn't that accurate, because quite frankly if it was that accurate it would look strange with this new engine. It worked for the original, but if we're going full 3D models now I've got to imagine something like that would probably have to be compromised. That being said, maybe if they did completely change it up for the Enchanted Dominion part it would have proved to be a good example of the Kingdom Shader. Ah well, take what you can get I suppose.

  5. #20
    ✧ G L A M A Z O N ✧ Rydgea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by GronoTRIGGERED View Post
    I mean, to be fair, the level design for enchanted dominion in 0.2 is so much improved from the original. BbS had a couple of spots of platforming in their version of the world, but nothing in there was nearly as deep and enthralling as it was exploring that straight darkness jungle leading up to the darkside rush.

    I don't even care if the art design isn't that accurate, because quite frankly if it was that accurate it would look strange with this new engine.

    It worked for the original, but if we're going full 3D models now I've got to imagine something like that would probably have to be compromised. That being said, maybe if they did completely change it up for the Enchanted Dominion part it would have proved to be a good example of the Kingdom Shader. Ah well, take what you can get I suppose.
    I don't buy most of that, tbh. I have the imagination to visualize it anyways. While I agree there was a bit more fleshed out (though still mostly long hallway) exploration, the aesthetic of the bg models would'nt have any bearing on whether or not platforming elements were involved. You can just as easily land on a square as you can a circle.

    The teams have been able to properly convert these worlds into 3D translations of their 2D counterparts up until this moment in the series (speaking of ED only). Mulan's The Land of Dragons world retained the Eastern inspiration, the watercolor effects and shapes presented in the original film in KH2. Halloween Town, Port Royal, Space Paranoids and The Grid all embraced the separation from the normal Disney canon style with great success imho. Chalk it up to this stage of the Kingdom Shader (if they even play a part in the backgrounds vs just the characters) or tooling with this new level of realism being in it's infancy, but I believe they are more than capable of delivering something stylized. It just looked generic here. The rich art is one of the most celebrated aspects of that film and they just completely missed the mark.

  6. #21
    KH ☼ D&D ☼ Music ☼ Wack. GronoTRIGGERED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydgea View Post
    I don't buy most of that, tbh. I have the imagination to visualize it anyways. While I agree there was a bit more fleshed out (though still mostly long hallway) exploration, the aesthetic of the bg models would'nt have any bearing on whether or not platforming elements were involved. You can just as easily land on a square as you can a circle.

    The teams have been able to properly convert these worlds into 3D translations of their 2D counterparts up until this moment in the series (speaking of ED only). Mulan's The Land of Dragons world retained the Eastern inspiration, the watercolor effects and shapes presented in the original film in KH2. Halloween Town, Port Royal, Space Paranoids and The Grid all embraced the separation from the normal Disney canon style with great success imho. Chalk it up to this stage of the Kingdom Shader (if they even play a part in the backgrounds vs just the characters) or tooling with this new level of realism being in it's infancy, but I believe they are more than capable of delivering something stylized. It just looked generic here. The rich art is one of the most celebrated aspects of that film and they just completely missed the mark.
    Oh, sorry, I must have not been clear. I just meant that it would have been jarring if the art style shifted a bit, like when Pirates was included with the animated films and they didn't put a lot of effort in blending it with the aesthetic.

    I get why you'd be upset, though. Personally, I loved how good everything looked, but at the same time I could see how someone would want to see it just like the movie since that was the precedent before. I don't think that people like me would hold the graphics in such a high regard if that wasn't one of the selling points of the new game, though; personally, I think that the game looked absolutely breathtaking and was a much-needed change, since all of the games before now looked practically identical.

    Either way, Kingdom Hearts III is looking a lot more stylized, with the plants on Mount Olympus and literally the entirety of Toy Story so far, so I'm sure that III will do a lot more with their Kingdom Shader than 0.2 ended up doing.

  7. #22
    ✧ G L A M A Z O N ✧ Rydgea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    Ah, I see. I guess I like the shifts in aesthetic, because it helps differentiate what might be an otherwise monotonous experience. Plus, it reinforces you're visiting other worlds! But more than that I just love it when they respectfully stay true to the stylizing of the films they're derived from. Another good example of their prowess is how they'd manipulated Zack to look like a perfect amalgamation of himself and the other Greek vase painting inspired characters of Olympus Colosseum. It wasn't expected, considering how Cloud and Auron were unaffected by this, but it made so much sense. It's kindof like when Sora & Co. are able to change with their settings.

    I recognize the work put into these worlds. There are elements that were beautiful about all the worlds in 0.2; even so Enchanted Dominion didn't really feel like Enchanted Dominion to me. It was just any old, scary forest now. Like I said in my original post it's a nit pick of mine, just one of several in 0.2. When those personal flaws add up, it resonates to a lesser degree than some of the others in the series's list.

    Anyways, I agree that KHIII seems to be heading in the right direction, looking beautiful so far. The way the Toy Story world looks is amazing (and it's why I had faith in ED - why wouldn't I when they'd done it justice previously, and again in KHUX I might add), and it is a perfect example of what they're capable of as well.

  8. #23
    Here Comes a Thought Dandelion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    I'm with Rydega - I think 0.2 is absolutely beautiful but it totally missed the mark on the Forst of Thorns segment. The cliffs and boulders are too rounded, and the movie's style is almost entirely angular. This has nothing to do with the engine or shaders, the models themselves are just off. When they've been nailing everything else, it is really annoying.

  9. #24
    Dream Eater ImVentus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    Well they still have a lot to improve on the character rigs. Looking at Aqua's facial expressions in 0.2 she's lacking any real sense of horror or surprise.
    She looks kind of happy don't you think?


    However here she's somewhat more expressive

    This isn't to sound nitpicky just to state some flaws that should be challenged for next time.

  10. #25
    Dream Eater ImVentus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    0.2 is still a good game just not great.

  11. #26
    Organization Member The Dark Mamba's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydgea View Post
    I don't buy most of that, tbh. I have the imagination to visualize it anyways. While I agree there was a bit more fleshed out (though still mostly long hallway) exploration, the aesthetic of the bg models would'nt have any bearing on whether or not platforming elements were involved. You can just as easily land on a square as you can a circle.

    The teams have been able to properly convert these worlds into 3D translations of their 2D counterparts up until this moment in the series (speaking of ED only). Mulan's The Land of Dragons world retained the Eastern inspiration, the watercolor effects and shapes presented in the original film in KH2. Halloween Town, Port Royal, Space Paranoids and The Grid all embraced the separation from the normal Disney canon style with great success imho. Chalk it up to this stage of the Kingdom Shader (if they even play a part in the backgrounds vs just the characters) or tooling with this new level of realism being in it's infancy, but I believe they are more than capable of delivering something stylized. It just looked generic here. The rich art is one of the most celebrated aspects of that film and they just completely missed the mark.
    That's an issue that I've never brought up but one I indeed had with the visual style of the princess worlds of 0.2.

    The previous visual style of the series was able to capture the visual style of those movies in BBS. They captured Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella's art style pretty nicely in BBS but that was all abandoned in 0.2 were they did look nice but the right style wasn't there, especially for Enchanted Dominion. Thankfully I think KH3 is doing a much better job in terms of capturing the right visual style of the worlds.

    Besides that, the big problem with 0.2 was the lack of any real story substance. There's just not much there and the way it sh#ts on Blank Points is just tragic.

  12. #27
    KH ☼ D&D ☼ Music ☼ Wack. GronoTRIGGERED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Mamba View Post
    That's an issue that I've never brought up but one I indeed had with the visual style of the princess worlds of 0.2.

    The previous visual style of the series was able to capture the visual style of those movies in BBS. They captured Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella's art style pretty nicely in BBS but that was all abandoned in 0.2 were they did look nice but the right style wasn't there, especially for Enchanted Dominion. Thankfully I think KH3 is doing a much better job in terms of capturing the right visual style of the worlds.

    Besides that, the big problem with 0.2 was the lack of any real story substance. There's just not much there and the way it sh#ts on Blank Points is just tragic.
    I absolutely agree with the blank points notion, I was so upset by that.

    I will say that I wasn't a fan of the visual presentation of BbS anyways, not really. Sure, it means something to look the part, but you have to act the part too. The lack of NPC's, -5% exploration in each world, and the lame, disconnected boss fights (for the most part, dragon maleficent was okay) make those worlds so much worse in my opinion. That and the dialogue for those worlds was thoroughly forgettable, if not awful. Some Aqua line about "there's darkness here, I sense it" in Castle of Dreams made me cringe really hard the first time I heard it, Willow's delivery was so terrible.

    Was 0.2 lacking in visuals? Maybe, depending on how you look at it, but the platforming and level design is so much better that I don't think all of the BbS worlds combined could have even held a candle to them. Also, they had an excuse for not having NPC's other than "it was too hard on the OG console" (giving you the stinkeye, ballroom from Castle of Dreams and Olympus Coliseum). We can argue about if the dialogue was any better, though; I'd say yes, but not too much better. The Terra scene was well written, but everything leading up to it was pretty lame.

  13. #28
    ✧ G L A M A Z O N ✧ Rydgea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by GronoTRIGGERED View Post
    I will say that I wasn't a fan of the visual presentation of BbS anyways, not really.
    I'm puzzled, because BBS had the same style as the PS2 era games.

    Sure, it means something to look the part, but you have to act the part too. The lack of NPC's, -5% exploration in each world, and the lame, disconnected boss fights (for the most part, dragon maleficent was okay) make those worlds so much worse in my opinion. That and the dialogue for those worlds was thoroughly forgettable, if not awful.
    Style vs substance is a valid argument, though each item in your laundry list could be applied to many of the games in the series, not just BBS. I'd wager a majority of the KH audience does not expect a hearty platforming experience each entry given its track record. Re:coded seemed to be on the right path, but DDD cheapened those possibilities with Flowmotion. In the end, it's not a platforming series, however welcome those elements are. And it's not as though the overall experience is much more rewarding in 0.2 when it does engage these ideas. Oh, we have an excuse to not have NPCs in the Dark World? Great it can make sense this time! Only it doesn't evoke a different tone than the other games, because that's basically all we've known, so it's not exactly worth celebrating? Previous towns never appeared bustling regardless if they held a few NPCs to a room. So, the Dark World only ever felt creepy to me, because it was doused in pitch and backed with haunting tracks. Oh look! We get to dress Aqua up in pretty things! I like pretty things, sure... that's fine they serve no function,... unlike the clothes in KHUX. k

    I just feel like you're getting derailed defending 0.2 by solely deconstructing BBS. There's still way more to do in CoD and ED over the course of TAV's journeys in BBS than there is in 0.2's counterparts, and since aesthetics are a huge part of a game based off the art of timeless animated classics I'd say the former achieves both the style and substance award more than the latter, IMHO~

    Less can be more, but for me, it didn't take advantage of the opportunities it was afforded. In fact, I'd like to trim the fat off some of the "meat" we got in 0.2 to make it just an anemic story rather than an anemic story that further tortures matters. There's obviously nothing wrong with you, OP or anyone liking the game. I like it too, though I embrace the points of criticism.

  14. #29
    KH ☼ D&D ☼ Music ☼ Wack. GronoTRIGGERED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is BBS 0.2 so bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydgea View Post
    I'm puzzled, because BBS had the same style as the PS2 era games.
    It did, you're right! KH has great platforming, great combat, and a great story to it, while Kingdom Hearts II has similar good qualities to it, if a bit more foundationally flawed in my honest opinion. What I was getting to was that, while it looked the part, it didn't act the part. That's what I meant by I wasn't a fan of the visual presentation. You can look like Thebes, for example, but if you can't inject any of the life of Hercules then you're just a pointless grinding world in that game to me.

    I know it may sound scathing, but I'm critical because I love it. The ending of BbS was great, and I love all the characters for it; it's a shame, for me anyways, that the level design is so bland and hardly ever shines. I believe that, in worlds like Deep Space and Neverland, they did explore that a bit and created interesting level design, and, at least from what I've played, a big factor of interesting level design is platforming. There is other things obviously, like environmental effects and barriers that can add to the battlefield, but the most prominent of these in the series have been the platforming of several of the titles, as interacting and exploring the level is just as important as the gameplay of combat.

    This is something that tends to be an afterthought to the series; don't get me wrong, when it is added it's great, such as the secret episode of Birth by Sleep and Cavern of Remembrance from KHII, but these are both significant in that they were added post-game, and I believe that, if implemented earlier, they could have made traversing the worlds more interactive, as walking through straight-aways was a big and disappointing departure to the magic of the original, in my opinion at least.

    And, again, you can disagree with me. You can say that visuals are divorced from that entirely and I won't argue with you. I just believe that level design and visuals are a two-for-one package, and if I have to pick one over the other it would be the platforming from 0.2 over the bland, blocky levels from the princess worlds in BbS any day. I hope I don't come off rude, I'm just trying to state my position :D

    Style vs substance is a valid argument, though each item in your laundry list could be applied to many of the games in the series, not just BBS. I'd wager a majority of the KH audience does not expect a hearty platforming experience each entry given its track record.
    And I'd agree with you! But just because they don't expect it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be implemented. The most exciting part of III to me is the level design and the liveliness of each world shown so far, as I believe that that is far more immersive and rewarding than just vaguely looking like the movie you're currently in. It's hearkening back to the first game in that way, and I love it for that. I bring up BbS only because it begs to be compared to its sequel, 0.2.

    Re:coded seemed to be on the right path, but DDD cheapened those possibilities with Flowmotion. In the end, it's not a platforming series, however welcome those elements are. And it's not as though the overall experience is much more rewarding in 0.2 when it does engage these ideas.
    Eh, I'd disagree, but I think you know that :D And someone complimented Coded's level design for once! I feel like that never happens!

    Oh, we have an excuse to not have NPCs in the Dark World? Great it can make sense this time! Only it doesn't evoke a different tone than the other games, because that's basically all we've known, so it's not exactly worth celebrating? Previous towns never appeared bustling regardless if they held a few NPCs to a room. So, the Dark World only ever felt creepy to me, because it was doused in pitch and backed with haunting tracks. Oh look! We get to dress Aqua up in pretty things! I like pretty things, sure... that's fine they serve no function,... unlike the clothes in KHUX. k
    I agree that the tone of the dark world is... samey. Even with the idea that these areas are all technically part of the same world, you'd hope that they at least would have had a little more life injected into each of them to feel different. They were on the right track with the different arrangements of the dark world theme, but... it's still just one song arranged differently! It can only feel like one place but a little different!

    That NPC argument I made was dumb haha, I was just venting about my recent frustrations with DDD and the fact that NOTHING EXISTS ANYWHERE. Sorry!

    I just feel like you're getting derailed defending 0.2 by solely deconstructing BBS. There's still way more to do in CoD and ED over the course of TAV's journeys in BBS than there is in 0.2's counterparts, and since aesthetics are a huge part of a game based off the art of timeless animated classics I'd say the former achieves both the style and substance award more than the latter, IMHO~
    I mean, deconstructing BbS only makes sense, since this is the direct sequel to that game. Sorry if it sounds like I'm singling it out, but I only do it because it begs to be compared with its counterpart.

    I would say that the TAV argument is valid, but, to be fair... each segment in 0.2 is only 30 minutes or so. You can't really do much with that. Granted, they totally cockblocked us by not allowing us to enter the castle and see horrors and the twisted ballroom or anything, so you got me there. It really was pretty lame what they decided to do with CoD. I would say that ED and DW really expanded upon their original and really brought something interesting, puzzling, and Gothic, overall really impressing me when I finished them.

    And, I wrote this earlier, but I would argue that exploration and interactivity is what substance is, and in that case KHII, BbS, and DDD have to take a backseat to most anything else in the series. 0.2, though short, is very interactive, gives an incentive for replayability, and is pretty exploratory. I remember finding stuff even on my fifth playthrough that I never found before, which is pretty significant for such a small game.

    I will say that, for BbS, a little bit of the magic is gone for me, and I won't claim that I'm not a little bit biased. I do enjoy the combat quite a bit on Aqua's side, and the painfully slow keyblade combos and barren maps combined with Terra's awful voice acting really affected me the first time I played it, as using the commands and building my arsenal was really fun and interactive. I especially loved the stickers and the entirety of the final ending story, which I believe includes the best villains in the entire series to date.

    I don't hate BbS, I'm just very critical of it because I always see something that could be improved significantly in it, and for its sequel the first and most important thing that I noticed was the deep sense of verticality to it, something I had been craving since the first game and was only partially quenched with the bug blox from Coded.

    Less can be more, but for me, it didn't take advantage of the opportunities it was afforded. In fact, I'd like to trim the fat off some of the "meat" we got in 0.2 to make it just an anemic story rather than an anemic story that further tortures matters. There's obviously nothing wrong with you, OP or anyone liking the game. I like it too, though I embrace the points of criticism.
    I think we can both agree with the end of this line :D I embrace the criticism of 0.2, even though I seemed to have liked the gameplay more than some who played it, and I hope I got across that I don't hate BbS or any other game in the series. I just think that 0.2 took older elements from the series and really gave them a much-needed fresh coat of paint, and I appreciate that.

    That and, no matter what the style is, the graphics are so prettttyyyyyyyyy

 

 
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