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  1. #76
    Larxeneboi and proud to be DarkosOverlord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Quote Originally Posted by kirabook View Post
    No one tell him that dodge roll wasn't even in the original release of KH2. Of all the things to rage quit over though...
    Well I'd love to, but I was blocked, apparently.
    This seems to be the go-to these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirabook View Post
    I honestly don't think people like him are going to be AS much of a problem. Getting mad over dodge roll is really stupid. I'm more concerned with people willing to throw out the whole game or have their enjoyment of KH3 ruined because of plot elements.
    No yeah, that's my concern as well: people like him are dangerous only as catalysts. Because what really bugged me were the strawmen under his comments saying things like "it sucks every KH game has interesting ideas but always poorly executed" like it's most basic of truths.
    I'm sorry, KH II is stellar when it comes to gameplay, sometimes even compared to games out TODAY (which isn't a good thing for the latters, still).

  2. #77
    Nobody MelodicEnigma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    And you know, I think there's also something else interesting to get from the endeavor of getting newcomers to understand the total story on an individual game/movie basis.

    I realize that, at least in my personal experience, the first three Kingdom Hearts games (KH, CoM, and KH2) effectively acted as their own trilogy. The plot line and direction that was interwoven through these three is reasonably resolved in KH2. That's why a lot of fans, including myself, thought that the ending with Mickey's letter, AND, the original secret ending to KH2, was something that would lead to a completely new, fresh story line.

    Then, the new trilogy of plot progression happened. BBS was a prequel that didn't just provide information to fill holes (e.g. Crisis Core), but it effectively said: "Hey, remember that trilogy plot that you thought was done for? Yeah, we still have more to tell." And then, 365/2 Days and Coded acted as additional information that pushed forward into DDD. Add in a sprinkle of Union Cross, additional cutscenes in Final Mixes here and there, and then, we arrive to Kingdom Hearts 3, the true saga finale.

    In that way, I can see how the story is confusing. A lot of this wouldn't be fully understood or absorbed unless you took the time to look at the stories individually. In a setting where this plot progression is firstly told as a means of exposition, well, that just won't reasonably pan out well. I can clearly see how confusing all of that would be to a fresh mind, or unfortunately, glossed over as they just want to appease their reason for starting on KH3: gameplay/aesthetic.

    Hek, it somehow made those who played all those games believe the story is "convoluted" in its basic nature. Which, I do disagree with until DDD, but that's only because time travel is always a beast of a concept to write and understand anyway. And, the "convoluted" story most likely seems true when, of course, you jump into the constantly evolving story from nowhere, without anything. If followed from the beginning, it is A LOT, I know, but that's definitely better than starting at BBS, when, that acted as a supplement to the first three games (or again, in my experience, the first trilogy set).

    Honestly, I'm convinced that a lot of the people who talk about how complicated the story is are those who probably started somewhere after Kingdom Hearts without any prior knowledge. That's very easy to do, though, you can also still just enjoy the game. Story comparison isn't exact, but I like to think of God of War 3 as an example. You could totally start there, be like, "Oh, we're riding a Titan to go kill some Greek Gods? Cool." And honestly, there's not much stopping you from still having a blast. I know that will happen with Kingdom Hearts 3, as in, going to Disney/Pixar worlds and killing monsters without a care for plot, but unfortunately there's gonna be a lot more than just gameplay when it comes to the full immersion and experience. Someone reviewing it, would definitely feel that.

    I would hope that a confusedly biased, uninformed review of the story specifically wouldn't turn away newcomers from seeking information, or just simply being interested in the games. But, that will happen. Some may acknowledge that they still understood on a basic level, but I'm quite sure, that even those like that will realize Kingdom Hearts has a plot that is beyond basic. And without that, you're already straining the experience. So, I'd say kudos to doing the right thing and advocating for a more fair approach in what a game series offers.

  3. #78
    Silver Member Alpha Baymax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    A lot of people enjoyed Kingdom Hearts II without being aware of the Chain of Memory plot threads. I think Kingdom Hearts III can still be a fun, standalone game for the people who don't think too deep about the events transpiring. Not everyone's going to be like "Uh WhO's ThiS GuY!", some people will probably be too captivated by all the eye candy to really think too deep into the game.

  4. #79
    TRAPPED IN THE SHADOW REALM! Launchpad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    I've played sequels without playing previous installments, and I don't sit there with a stank face angrily confused about who's who... I usually just wait for context clues and eventually find myself with a basic understanding of the story.

    Because video game plots are pretty simple and obvious.

  5. #80
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Yes, Kingdom Hearts III is going to be amazing!!!

  6. #81
    Dream Eater TruestSyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Quote Originally Posted by Launchpad View Post
    I've played sequels without playing previous installments, and I don't sit there with a stank face angrily confused about who's who... I usually just wait for context clues and eventually find myself with a basic understanding of the story.

    Because video game plots are pretty simple and obvious.
    You're obviously an exception to the normal hive mind like mentality of normies. Context clues are a thing of the past in today's modern society. There are some games this wouldn't really work with though, imagine playing something like .hack// starting with volume 3 but or Xenosaga episode 2 and expecting these already heavily narrative heavy games to explain even more information from previous titles.

  7. #82
    Heartless SuperstarSaga08's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Quote Originally Posted by shady543 View Post
    Yeah I feel that if this franchise is gonna be mainstream and new people getting into it and all, everything being explained to Sora really is the best opportunity they've got unless they pull a type 0 and explain a lot of KH law before the title screen. Otherwise there's going to be a lot of this lol



    Wasn't those books summarizing the kingdom hearts plot-line meant to be available in the game though? Although I haven't bothered to read them so I have no clue how in depth they are. Ether way I'm just happy that the series IS becoming main stream and Square and Disney are finally giving the games the attention they deserve. If KH3 sells far higher than expectations (which at this point I think it will due to no competition in January and all the hype) it's really exciting to think that Disney may use it more. :3
    There is the Resident Evil 2 Remake which is gonna be pretty big, funny how it releases on Jan 25, same day as JP KH3 release, but if were talking about RPG games then no, there is no competition for KH3 in January.

  8. #83
    Silver Member Alpha Baymax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Quote Originally Posted by TruestSyn View Post
    You're obviously an exception to the normal hive mind like mentality of normies. Context clues are a thing of the past in today's modern society. There are some games this wouldn't really work with though, imagine playing something like .hack// starting with volume 3 but or Xenosaga episode 2 and expecting these already heavily narrative heavy games to explain even more information from previous titles.
    That's all fine and dandy, but that argument loses validity when you realise that parents who want to get their kids the popular video game buy this. Kingdom Hearts is a mainstream property as far as gaming goes, true "normies" want what's popular. It's why Infinity War is so profitable despite clearly being the third Avengers film.

  9. #84
    Warrior of Light kirabook's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Unlike Avengers I must say, Kingdom Hearts 3 is not something you're gonna complete in 2-3 hours (unless there's some speed running going on) I'm sure lots of moms and dads are going to get their kid this game because Mickey, Donald, and Goofy will be on the cover, but those kids aren't going to be on the internet complaining about how difficult the game is to understand plot wise. They probably won't even care. Nothing against kids obviously, but hopefully most parents don't let their 7 year olds run rampant on the internet. I mean, I'm sure it happens, but those kids aren't the issue and will be the minority.

    We're talking about grown people. Preteens (borderline), teens, and adults. While I don't expect a literal child to keep up with everything going on (those games came out before they were even born), I would hope someone old enough to truly use the internet isn't going to rush into the end of a saga and then complain about the plot later. It still blows my mind that this is a debatable issues.

    Yes, if I were to jump into a game series super late, I would first do my research (I did for God of War) OR, I would do my best to pick up context clues KNOWING that I won't understand everything or catch all the references to previous titles.

    I learned a long time ago a lot of people are NOT like that though, including a lot of KH fans. They do expect everything to be fed to them knowing they completely skipped some games. They simply don't want to take the time to... I don't know. They won't let their imagination run wild and try to pick up the pieces and accepting they put themselves in that position.

    I remember the first time I got KH2 and the opening played. Firstly, I was enamored and couldn't sit down because it was beautiful on my 13 inch old school tv. When I saw the scene of Sora running into Namine's chamber and getting entrapped by the flower thing, I had no idea what happened and thought it'd be explained in game eventually (I had no idea CoM existed and didn't have money to get a Gameboy anyway) In the meantime, I came up with a bajillion theories as to what was happening. I remember making AMVs about this and uploading them to youtube in the summer of 2007 or something (and man, they were terrible). That was back when I don't think you could upload an avatar directly to youtube, you had to use a video thumbnail. So, I used my video of Sora being trapped in a globe and I still haven't changed it



    Around that time, someone made a 3 hour long movie of the CoM GBA footage and I watched it multiple times. Finally gaps were starting to fill in and it was quite nice. I was never angry that I missed something, it just drove me to want to learn more. (I felt stupid not knowing about CoM, but I was too busy playing neopets to be honest).

    I understand what it feels like to be lacking knowledge, but I wish more people took that feeling and said, "Oh, this means I should go learn more" instead of "This entire game sucks because it doesn't summarize 15 years worth of plot for me." I've never understood the outrage that comes from stepping into something that's already in full momentum and getting mad that it won't slow down just for you.

  10. #85
    Poutymer in da house Sephiroth0812's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Quote Originally Posted by kirabook View Post
    I understand what it feels like to be lacking knowledge, but I wish more people took that feeling and said, "Oh, this means I should go learn more" instead of "This entire game sucks because it doesn't summarize 15 years worth of plot for me." I've never understood the outrage that comes from stepping into something that's already in full momentum and getting mad that it won't slow down just for you.
    This is actually the crux about the whole issue I feel.
    Lacking knowledge in itself isn't something to be criticized or mocked, yet how people deal with this lack of knowledge is where things may get heaty.

    People getting upset at those who go "This entire game sucks because it doesn't summarize 15 years worth of plot for me." has nothing to do with being "elitist fanboys/-girls" but with applying some basic common sense on an approach to a work which is clearly stated as the finale to an ongoing saga.
    Someone mentioned the .hack franchise and that one is arguably worse in the spreading of the lore, although in its defense the plot is connected more loosely than the KH series does it.

    As Nomura said, recapping everything in KH III itself for complete newcomers would take too much space and screentime away to be feasible.
    Multiple avenues and proposals to catch up have been made in the last five years, if people take up none of those and then still complain it is not the fault of the creators or the game itself, so as people are allowed to criticize these (possibly lacking) parts of the game, so are people allowed to criticize certain behaviour concerning it.

  11. #86
    kiss me once alexis.anagram's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Y'all it really isn't that hard for the game to make itself understandable to newcomers and bring them into the fold. Like Launchpad mentioned a couple posts back, all you really need are some well placed context cues and good characterization. Having a decent plot that stands on its own merits doesn't hurt either.

    Unfortunately there's really no good substitution for playing the other games in the series in order to really "understand" KH3. Encouraging people to watch YouTube videos/Chirithy summaries/read endless recaps is not a good way to bring fans into the franchise, it's alienating and constitutes a huge amount of work and time sinking with little to no emotional reward, which is the only reason 99% of fans put up with this franchise and its plotting in the first place. It's the emotional pay-off at the end of it, details be damned-- even Nomura doesn't care about whether or not there's strict continuity as long as it plays the way he wants it to dramatically. A prospective fan could take all the time in the world to drag themselves up to speed on the lore and walk into KH3 and watch 50% or more of it get thrown out the window (this is already happening with the "new generation" PoH), so what's the point? For a new fan, it's far more important that KH3 play itself out in an internally rewarding fashion and act as a bridge to past titles: KH2 did that, and heck, even Days and BBS arguably did that given how many fans seem to have been introduced to the series through those titles. There's no reason KH3 is going to be especially difficult to position as a good experience for new players if the writers focus on what actually matters: crafting a proper story with rewarding, structured drama that makes an emotional mark on the audience. Most people will forget the details but remember the impact, and that's what's going to be important for new fans.

    I actually feel like there's a stronger chance of this game feeling convoluted and unrewarding for us longtime fans than for a newcomer who doesn't have any real expectations built up surrounding it. The Aquanort drama is proof of that (and no this isn't an invitation to rehash the debate, just using it for reference). The barrier of entry really shouldn't be that high for someone in the game store who got intrigued by the Disney themed box art or some kid on Twitter or wherever who got caught up in the general hype surrounding the game. Ultimately, the onus is still on SE/Disney/Nomura to produce the best game possible, and then there's room to evaluate whether or not people are operating in good or bad faith with their responses to it. And even then there's a larger argument to be made that this is just Nomura's chickens coming home to roost.

    I'm interested to see what happens, but ultimately I think KH3 is going to get a pass on pretty much everything it does plot-wise because game reviewers know not to expect it to be legible to them unless they're die-hards and will only consider it in passing, newcomers by and large won't know what to be disappointed about, and it will actually be the dedicated fans who find the most to quibble about and/or praise when all is said and done, as usual. I do think KH3's potential wider appeal and impact might be blunted because of that, but I don't think that part is anybody's fault but the people who have been running the franchise, and I'll reserve my ire for them if and when the time comes.

  12. #87
    Nobody MelodicEnigma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Quote Originally Posted by alexis.anagram View Post
    Y'all it really isn't that hard for the game to make itself understandable to newcomers and bring them into the fold. Like Launchpad mentioned a couple posts back, all you really need are some well placed context cues and good characterization. Having a decent plot that stands on its own merits doesn't hurt either.

    Unfortunately there's really no good substitution for playing the other games in the series in order to really "understand" KH3. Encouraging people to watch YouTube videos/Chirithy summaries/read endless recaps is not a good way to bring fans into the franchise, it's alienating and constitutes a huge amount of work and time sinking with little to no emotional reward, which is the only reason 99% of fans put up with this franchise and its plotting in the first place. It's the emotional pay-off at the end of it, details be damned-- even Nomura doesn't care about whether or not there's strict continuity as long as it plays the way he wants it to dramatically. A prospective fan could take all the time in the world to drag themselves up to speed on the lore and walk into KH3 and watch 50% or more of it get thrown out the window (this is already happening with the "new generation" PoH), so what's the point? For a new fan, it's far more important that KH3 play itself out in an internally rewarding fashion and act as a bridge to past titles: KH2 did that, and heck, even Days and BBS arguably did that given how many fans seem to have been introduced to the series through those titles. There's no reason KH3 is going to be especially difficult to position as a good experience for new players if the writers focus on what actually matters: crafting a proper story with rewarding, structured drama that makes an emotional mark on the audience. Most people will forget the details but remember the impact, and that's what's going to be important for new fans.

    I actually feel like there's a stronger chance of this game feeling convoluted and unrewarding for us longtime fans than for a newcomer who doesn't have any real expectations built up surrounding it. The Aquanort drama is proof of that (and no this isn't an invitation to rehash the debate, just using it for reference). The barrier of entry really shouldn't be that high for someone in the game store who got intrigued by the Disney themed box art or some kid on Twitter or wherever who got caught up in the general hype surrounding the game. Ultimately, the onus is still on SE/Disney/Nomura to produce the best game possible, and then there's room to evaluate whether or not people are operating in good or bad faith with their responses to it. And even then there's a larger argument to be made that this is just Nomura's chickens coming home to roost.

    I'm interested to see what happens, but ultimately I think KH3 is going to get a pass on pretty much everything it does plot-wise because game reviewers know not to expect it to be legible to them unless they're die-hards and will only consider it in passing, newcomers by and large won't know what to be disappointed about, and it will actually be the dedicated fans who find the most to quibble about and/or praise when all is said and done, as usual. I do think KH3's potential wider appeal and impact might be blunted because of that, but I don't think that part is anybody's fault but the people who have been running the franchise, and I'll reserve my ire for them if and when the time comes.
    True, but your mention of impact playing a role in how they understand and feel the game is why someone starting on this game for the first time won't objectively experience it in its fullest effect, whether that be as a game, or for themselves. Of course, as I've said before, every story's path is written to be taken on its own because that is the nature of storytelling. However, for a story that's backed up by so much storytelling, that does affect how it is consumed, no matter what is presented. That emotional pay off won't completely trigger for a newcomer if the investment isn't even initially there.

    They'll come crashing "into the fold" for sure, but my original point was just speaking on how the game won't (and shouldn't) play out in a way where those people will feel "caught up" to experience it AS a saga finale. The story line will be understandable on its own, as any story, but if it was to make itself told to fully absorb (not assuming previous knowledge) all other nine games content, that consequently damages how its consumed, because as you said, that information won't mean much or stick with someone jumping in. KH2 had a two game difference, only one if they skipped over CoM, and BBS was part of a set that introduced a lot of backstory that was accessible to those wanting to learn the world (Hek, in some cases, it explained the general lore better than the first Kingdom Hearts did). But, with nine games behind it, and with a function as a saga finale, their level of understanding in KH3 as a first game, and experience as such, won't go any further than the conditions of which they're thrust in. Of course this means they can still enjoy the game as they can, understand things as they can, and be fine with that for where that takes them, whether hating the series or wanting to play previous titles and more.

    I think that's fine, and I've accepted that. There'll literally be a lot of people starting on KH3, and at the end of the day, that's still better than not playing KH3 at all. But, I won't pretend that someone starting on KH3 is not going to feel that weight, and inevitably, have their experienced dampened by it, even if their whole reason for playing comes down to the aesthetic/gameplay. And I certainly won't tell newcomers to play it without potentially feeling confused or lost because exposition will "cover" it and make everything understandable in full. It will be understandable as is, but a lot of information expressed in previous game will be basic at best, and still in a context that is still is still new. Again, a basic idea doesn't provide the fullest experience objectively, but they can still enjoy it nonetheless.

    I don't really see why that's complicated. As fans who, in general, want people to play KH3, we really shouldn't be so fearful of running people away. I think it's important to note that most people who know that this game is a part of a long series, will know they'll be confused. And they won't care. They know they're going to be thrown into an unknown, weighted game about things already established, and possibly feel a natural detachment to the story's function as a saga finale. They have their own reasons to play, whether aesthetic/gameplay/hype etc. They won't be turned away by what they already know. Us suggesting that they optimize their experience by indulging in previous material isn't going to change their reason for spending the money/time on KH3.

    It just comes down to being a lot more simple than any banter I've stated. If you want to start on KH3, I'm very sure you'll find something to enjoy about the game, even finding interest in the story that is presented as is. But, just know its the saga finale, the tenth installment, so you won't experience it in full if you dive right in with nothing. Just keep up as you can, hog all the Megalixirs, know Donald may or may not heal you, and play on. Nothing else to it.

  13. #88
    Larxeneboi and proud to be DarkosOverlord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Quote Originally Posted by alexis.anagram View Post
    I'm interested to see what happens, but ultimately I think KH3 is going to get a pass on pretty much everything it does plot-wise because game reviewers know not to expect it to be legible to them unless they're die-hards and will only consider it in passing, newcomers by and large won't know what to be disappointed about, and it will actually be the dedicated fans who find the most to quibble about and/or praise when all is said and done, as usual.
    See, it all comes down to me not sharing this optimism about the mainstream audience and reviewers.
    Like, at all.
    If these past years have thaught me anything is that while it is thought that the KH fanboys are the source of the problem and they agressively attack the poor websites and anons who just want to play the game while struggling to understand it, that's just not true. Or at the very least, it's only half of the truth.

    People who just want to bash on the franchise won't make the slightest attempt to understand the game, finding complexity and plot holes where there are none. You try and reason with them, they stomp you out. And it doesn't help a bunvh of these people are by sheer coincidence huge web stars, with audience, reputation and sheer numbers to make their childish behaviour seem justified.
    What do we have? A lot of KHTubers are the "throwing chair while screaming" sort who don't get much mileage, the rest are speedrunners mostly disenamored with the saga and fandom themselves. Congrats to Erika Harlacher and Soraalam1 for being a nice middle road I guess.

    Obnoxious KH fanboys still exist and have their own share of faults, but there's really no need to highlight that, because the Internet will never stop reminding you of it.
    KH is the butt of so many jokes it's not even funny anymore.
    That's why I loved when a lot of Twitter people defended the saga for once after the E3 trailers and the discovery of the term "Norted", because finally it got acknowledged the "jokes" got out of hand and became the dogma.

    And rest assured, I myself can feel my own salt and bitterness. And it makes me sad, because I used to think this victimism mindset was a vestige from my adolescence and things weren't that bad... then the collections dropped, KH became mainstream and relevant again, people expressed their opinion, and I got welcomed by the ugliest smile of a community that I believed better than what it is.

  14. #89
    Warrior of Light kirabook's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Again, as I mentioned, I don't want constant reminders of stuff that's already happened and repetitive dialogue over and over again. I want KH3 to spend its time moving forward, not constantly restating past events to the point where it gets annoying.

    I mean, if it does place a bunch of context clues, I doubt it's going to be absolutely terrible... but we have at least 2 games that are nothing but retellings of the first game plus CoM.

    Basically, I don't want DDD Sora moments where in every world, he's like, "Oh right, this is a dream world and dream people, not the REAL ones."

    For example, when Marluxia shows up, I don't want an entire plot summary of CoM, I'd prefer if he were snarky about what he knows and teases Sora with bits and pieces of knowledge about Namine (same with Larxene). When Xigbar shows up, I'd rather he be snarky about their past plans to capture Sora rather than explain the plot of DDD.

    Luckily, that's what seems to be happening based on trailers. Xigbar is just going on his rants that are very similar to his DDD ones. Same for Xemnas and AnsemSoD. Marly teased about remembering Sora very well and Sora just looks confused (so I hope that means Marly decides not to tell him much). And Larxene is Larxene, she's even more likely not to tell Sora anything and taunt him over it.

    Sora is the best vehicle for newcomers to learn stuff from past games, but they can't learn everything. Maybe they'll get some context clues from CoM because Sora doesn't remember that game just like a new player wouldn't. Sora doesn't know about Xion or Roxas' in Days struggles just like a new player couldn't. Sora doesn't quite remember Terra, Aqua, and Ven and neither would a new player. Sora doesn't know jack about the book of prophecies and the data journal stuff, just like a new player wouldn't.

    That's all find and dandy, Sora learning that stuff for the first time. In fact, I'm very looking forward to Sora and Aqua interactions (even though they might be negative now, should still be HIGHLY entertaining). But retreading KH1 and KH2... which are kind of the backbone of the series.... why bother.

  15. #90
    Bronze Member Tartarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newcomers Playing KH3

    Quote Originally Posted by alexis.anagram View Post
    I actually feel like there's a stronger chance of this game feeling convoluted and unrewarding for us longtime fans than for a newcomer who doesn't have any real expectations built up surrounding it. The Aquanort drama is proof of that (and no this isn't an invitation to rehash the debate, just using it for reference). The barrier of entry really shouldn't be that high for someone in the game store who got intrigued by the Disney themed box art or some kid on Twitter or wherever who got caught up in the general hype surrounding the game. Ultimately, the onus is still on SE/Disney/Nomura to produce the best game possible, and then there's room to evaluate whether or not people are operating in good or bad faith with their responses to it. And even then there's a larger argument to be made that this is just Nomura's chickens coming home to roost.
    I know that's my position.

    I think you're right that die-hard fans will likely be more disappointed than casuals. God knows I hated KH2--and even after KH2FM, not that a FM could've undone all the damage from KH2 anyway, it's still a mess--but the casuals who'd never played KH1 or CoM prior thought it was the best thing that ever graced the PS2. I can see the generation that came into the series via KH2 or Days or BbS being very disappointed by KH3. Personally, I'm hoping it's a return to form.
    Last edited by Tartarus; July 13, 2018 at 06:26 PM.

 

 
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