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  1. #91
    Poutymer in da house Sephiroth0812's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkosOverlord View Post
    I respectfully disagree.
    I think infiltrating the Organization's stronghold was no less war-like than the Hollow Bastion conflict.
    I acknowledge Demyx was indeed holding them up (although they had no idea the Organization could control the Heartless, so I don't think they saw him as an enemy commander), that he still was (known as) an enemy, and they told him to move.
    And, when that didn't work once, they... struck him down.

    The only thing Demyx ever did was holding Sora up and impeding his progress. And in aswer to that Sora vanquished him, and with his knowledge at the time meant killing him.
    Original point still stands.
    And while I know Demyx's defeat was something dictated by storytelling and gameplay and I'm reading too much into this (although it is a nitpick thread)... well. There ARE boss battles in Kingdom Hearts where even if you deplete the HP bar you're not murdering the boss.
    But aside from that, all I wanted were different reactions, pre and post fight. I keep feeling like if everyone in that portion of KH II, devs included, saw Demyx like this terrible villain except me.
    This is some "Pete said he doesn't care for a couple of votes let's lock him into the Void for ten and more years" level of thinking.
    It wasn't as urgent in either case though as during the Radiant Garden events Sora & co. knew that Leon & co. were in danger, they could hear the battle sounds and see the vast army of Heartless roaming about. There was definitely a higher adrenaline level and urgency involved on their side.
    Furthermore, the fact that Axel was, however shortly, already fighting alongside Sora beforehand did change the basic dynamic of the situation quite a lot from Sora's viewpoint.
    Axel was helping right now at that time, Demyx was impeding and an obstacle, hence a different assessment. Things like actual male-/benevolence level or other transgressions made elsewhere were thus of inferior consideration.

    Uh okay, how much more time to you think SDG should have wasted by continue to tell him to move aside?
    Sora playing his little mockery game was already a colossal waste of time for someone who's in a hurry to help someone else.
    Or asked differently, what should they have done in your opinion?

    You see, well, by holding Sora up and impeding his progress Demyx was additionally endangering some of those Sora cares about, which is one of Sora's berserk buttons and unlike some people erronously assume Sora is not an all-forgiving sunshine ball. He can be ruthless if sufficiently riled up and by that time he was riled up already or did you forget his angry reaction towards Xehanort's portrait and the revelations made right before this sequence?
    Sora had also no qualms to even strike those he perceives as an enemy down mid-sentence in KH 1 and Chain of Memories, so in this case I am actually also wondering somewhat, but in the exact opposite direction to you as to me it comes over as if people are somehow hellbent on making a special case just for Demyx because they find him funny/cute whatever when, except for the already mentioned useless mockery stunt before the fight, the way Sora reacts and finishes the fight is not that much different to several other cases throughout the whole series.

    Nah, considering how often this scene gets mentioned fandom-wise and how eeeeviiil and mean Sora is often decried in it you're certainly not the only one bothered by it.
    Except for the pre-fight mockery stuff though which I see as a waste of time on Sora's part, not necessarily as an "ooh he's mean to "poor" Demyx"-type of deal, I personally do not have much of a problem with how Sora handled the whole battle since based on what was shown in other situations throughout the series and the context of the urgency it makes logical sense.

    Except that Minnie never said such a thing about ten years or more, she temporarily banished him to "cool off a little" and Pete did more than just say some mean things as the way he was posed indicates he was about to physically assault the queen.
    Not to mention the whole point of the Dream Festival being to show off how people care for and help each other, yet everything Pete does is highly egoistical and he cares only about the prize.
    The ducklings, Chip & Dale as well as Horace (and Goofy in KH 2) also mention that Pete is nearly always doing something troublesome so it is also possible that the incident shown in BBS was just the final straw for Minnie to finally decree some harsher measures.
    Note how she even states that:
    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie
    I've tried to forgive a lot of things you've done, but this is too much.
    So while the incident shown there by itself may not look like much, we can infer by the statements of the other Disney Town citizens and Minnie's reaction that this is just one incident in a whole row of transgressions.

    ---

    It is somewhat interesting to see though (not directed specifically at you, mind, but an observation I made in fandom in general), that no matter how heinous the things done by villains/antagonistic characters are, if they're fan favorites or look somewhat "hot" or "cute" there are pulled out dozens of explanations and sometimes part-excuses as to why they did as such and why it may serve an ultimatively noble end goal, yet when a protagonist/"good" character does something that's more harsh he/she is suddenly considered an immoral, heartless being who's being mean and picking on the poor poor misunderstood villain/antagonist, lol.

  2. #92
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Uh okay, how much more time to you think SDG should have wasted by continue to tell him to move aside?
    Sora playing his little mockery game was already a colossal waste of time for someone who's in a hurry to help someone else.
    Or asked differently, what should they have done in your opinion?
    Not vanquishing him. As I said, KH showed us that it's possible to fight without ending the opponent.
    But again, that is my personal nitpick. I actually did not expect Demyx to survive nor would I know how to write the story in that situation.
    I don't think the writers did anything wrong by making an obvious final fight against him ending with him getting vanquished, just noting this doesn't resonate with my image of Sora.

    You see, well, by holding Sora up and impeding his progress Demyx was additionally endangering some of those Sora cares about, which is one of Sora's berserk buttons and unlike some people erronously assume Sora is not an all-forgiving sunshine ball.
    Well, I'd hate to quote this from Dream Drop Distance, as I didn't like it, but:
    "Sora has a heart like that- uncorrupted, willing to see the good before the bad." sayeth Ansem.
    Sora refused to see anything else but the fact that Demyx was a Nobody and his enemy, and ignored anything else about his non-aggressive personality.
    His reactions against Xehanort is kind of a different matter: he knew who Xehanort was- evil in his mind.
    But this Sora who is described as this child soul who will see good in you before anything else doesn't really match up his attitude towards possibly the least aggressive of his enemies.
    I elaborate more about this a bit further below.

    Sora had also no qualms to even strike those he perceives as an enemy down mid-sentence in KH 1 and Chain of Memories, so in this case I am actually also wondering somewhat, but in the exact opposite direction to you as to me it comes over as if people are somehow hellbent on making a special case just for Demyx because they find him funny/cute whatever when, except for the already mentioned useless mockery stunt before the fight, the way Sora reacts and finishes the fight is not that much different to several other cases throughout the whole series.
    Well, not really. Should you manage to beat them, Sora will stop once Cloud and Leon are unable to keep fighting (even if he does collapse after dealing with Leon, he was talking like the fight was over. He saw Leon, a much more menacing guy, with a knee on the ground and decided not to continue.)
    Sark was defeated but not erased on the spot. Riku was left able to walk away from every match (okay, I admit Riku is obviously an extreme case, still Sora doesn't just eradicate the evil as soon as he fights.)
    Any enemy that wasn't the declared overlord of darkness or a paragon of evilness basically got to "live" and was done by other factors, really.
    And in these two groups, Demyx's fate was put with the one that in my opinion didn't represent him is what I'm saying.

    Aside from the fact that CoM Sora was definitely altered, given his reactions and backlash against Donald Goofy and the Jiminy too, Larxene (the character towards whom Sora was arguably the most violent) was as different from Demyx.
    Larxene makes it so you can't help but hate her and is without a doubt a malevolent and evil woman who likes to see others suffer. And a great character in my mind. I seriously love Larxene, close to a fanboy level.
    But I would never argue that Sora did bad or was out of character for him to try and vanquish her.

    Except that Minnie never said such a thing about ten years or more, she temporarily banished him to "cool off a little" and Pete did more than just say some mean things as the way he was posed indicates he was about to physically assault the queen.
    Not to mention the whole point of the Dream Festival being to show off how people care for and help each other, yet everything Pete does is highly egoistical and he cares only about the prize.
    The ducklings, Chip & Dale as well as Horace (and Goofy in KH 2) also mention that Pete is nearly always doing something troublesome so it is also possible that the incident shown in BBS was just the final straw for Minnie to finally decree some harsher measures.
    Note how she even states that:


    So while the incident shown there by itself may not look like much, we can infer by the statements of the other Disney Town citizens and Minnie's reaction that this is just one incident in a whole row of transgressions.
    Except that Donald and Goofy are surprised to see Pete out of the dimension in KH II, so that means they either forgot about him or kept thinking him being secluded there for all that time was "just".
    I do wonder what else could've Pete done in the past. For some reason, I don't think it could take a 180 and be something really ruthless and different from his BbS mischief.
    Minnie also did say "I tried to overlook many things that you did, but you've finally crossed the line!"
    So, disregarding those votes WAS a pretty big deal even for him.

    Even if he did, say, destroyed half of the town-- a void. Eleven years and counting.

    It is somewhat interesting to see though (not directed specifically at you, mind, but an observation I made in fandom in general), that no matter how heinous the things done by villains/antagonistic characters are, if they're fan favorites or look somewhat "hot" or "cute" there are pulled out dozens of explanations and sometimes part-excuses as to why they did as such and why it may serve an ultimatively noble end goal, yet when a protagonist/"good" character does something that's more harsh he/she is suddenly considered an immoral, heartless being who's being mean and picking on the poor poor misunderstood villain/antagonist, lol.
    I do get where you're coming from (I also should mention, not because I'm feeling called out but for clarity, that I do not even like Demyx's character that much). Is definitely harder from a hero to act violent without making someone speak ill of him.
    You've touched the real issue-- this is (again) less about the character and more about how we see his actions, probably.
    It's also clear by now how us two have a seriously different way to gauge evil, good, and even violence and mercy, at this point.
    Intriguing.

  3. #93
    Scala ad Caelum Swoosh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    On the topic of Pete why did Maleficent even free and recruit him? From his antics in Disney Town what made her think he'd be a good commander, lol.

  4. #94
    Silver Member MATGSY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Ok so, with The One World that all other worlds are fragments of.......are the alien races of Lilo & Stitch native to the same world as all of the humans then?

    On the topic of Pete why did Maleficent even free and recruit him? From his antics in Disney Town what made her think he'd be a good commander, lol.
    Eh, he does the job of spreading heartless & getting new ones made well enough. Maleficent's probably operating on Beast Wars henchmen logic: they're either loyal but dumb or smart yet treacherous. Loyal & dumb at least gets the grunt work done.

  5. #95
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Oh, idk if something already brought it up, but of course-- everyone in the universe speak English/Japanese and no one ever addresses it.

    Also: Keyblade wielders can't reveal that there are other worlds, but they can freely mention the Keyblade, the Keyholes, the Heartless (except in Wonderland apparently) and all the other creatures.
    As long as they don't tell they're from other worlds, it seems (wonder how do you explain all the aforementioned things without making clear they're extraterrestrial).
    And if they come across other beings from different worlds such as Joshua or Scrooge, they have no interest or obligation in making sure THEY don't spill the beans about the other worlds.

    In the end, does this rule serve any purpose at all? Outside of driving the recruits mad.

  6. #96
    "Indeeeeeeeeeeeeed." FudgemintGuardian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkosOverlord View Post
    Well, I'd hate to quote this from Dream Drop Distance, as I didn't like it, but:
    "Sora has a heart like that- uncorrupted, willing to see the good before the bad." sayeth Ansem.
    Sora refused to see anything else but the fact that Demyx was a Nobody and his enemy, and ignored anything else about his non-aggressive personality.
    His reactions against Xehanort is kind of a different matter: he knew who Xehanort was- evil in his mind.
    But this Sora who is described as this child soul who will see good in you before anything else doesn't really match up his attitude towards possibly the least aggressive of his enemies.
    Sora: "You once stole an all-access pass and are now just sorta standing in my way! And for that you are the evilest of scum and will die where you stand!"

  7. #97
    She Shoots for the Stars maryadavies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Haha. Anyway I think I can somewhat justify that.

    1. He was told in the beginning that Nobodies don't really exist at all from Yen Sid.
    2. Most Nobodies..HURT people. Um, I know Sora doesn't like anyone that hurts people. Especially his friends. (Maybe he thought Demyx'd go after his friends, next.)
    3. Demyx called Sora a traitor. Um, I don't think anyone would take that very well.
    4. Prolly the mess in Olympus got Sora's goat a bit as well. I mean, Demyx was a thief (Stole that coin) and all that. That proly did NOT help.

    Add to the fact Demyx wouldn't get out of the way(so Sora could get to his friends who were in trouble), which was prolly the last straw.

  8. #98
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by maryadavies View Post
    Haha. Anyway I think I can somewhat justify that.

    1. He was told in the beginning that Nobodies don't really exist at all from Yen Sid.
    2. Most Nobodies..HURT people. Um, I know Sora doesn't like anyone that hurts people. Especially his friends. (Maybe he thought Demyx'd go after his friends, next.)
    3. Demyx called Sora a traitor. Um, I don't think anyone would take that very well.
    4. Prolly the mess in Olympus got Sora's goat a bit as well. I mean, Demyx was a thief (Stole that coin) and all that. That proly did NOT help.

    Add to the fact Demyx wouldn't get out of the way(so Sora could get to his friends who were in trouble), which was prolly the last straw.
    But that's the thing, you're kinda depicting Sora as someone who will eliminate someone just because he COULD do something or because his general race hurts people, because he was ordered to, or for theft.
    So much for seeing good above all else... Pete better watch his back. He's next and he doesn't even know it.
    Riku too. Thinks he's so much better because he wins at the race minigame *mumble mumble*

    Nitpick: you can literally beat Riku 100 times back on the island, but Tidus will still state you're no match for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by FudgemintGuardian View Post
    Sora: "You once stole an all-access pass and are now just sorta standing in my way! And for that you are the evilest of scum and will die where you stand!"
    "I also dropped a piece of paper, thus polluting the Underworld!"
    "YOU MONSTER"

    [Dunno if this is support, irony, or just a joke, but figured I'd roll with it.]

  9. #99
    She Shoots for the Stars maryadavies's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Darkos; didn't mean it that way. But there could be another reason. Could of he have been influenced by Roxas there? I don't know how Demyx treated Roxas; and I think it's been established that Roxas did influence Sora a little from the inside.

  10. #100
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkosOverlord View Post
    Nitpick: you can literally beat Riku 100 times back on the island, but Tidus will still state you're no match for him.
    "I guess Kairi can always count on him."

  11. #101
    Unversed palizinhas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    OK, nitpick that relates to the Nobody discussion going on: "just give it a rest! You're Nobodies! You don't even exist. You're not sad about anything!!" Says Sora, not very long after Axel sacrifices himself to save him.

  12. #102
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by maryadavies View Post
    Darkos; didn't mean it that way. But there could be another reason. Could of he have been influenced by Roxas there? I don't know how Demyx treated Roxas; and I think it's been established that Roxas did influence Sora a little from the inside.
    Possibly.
    This opens up an interesting "Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde" what-if worthy of being explored in fanfictions.
    Might give it a try myself later.

    Quote Originally Posted by VoidGear. View Post
    "I guess Kairi can always count on him."
    "He took the three of us at the same time and whipped us all. And you know we're the greatest threat ever."
    (Filthy RiKai shippers. How dare they.)

    Quote Originally Posted by palizinhas View Post
    OK, nitpick that relates to the Nobody discussion going on: "just give it a rest! You're Nobodies! You don't even exist. You're not sad about anything!!" Says Sora, not very long after Axel sacrifices himself to save him.
    Really tho. After Axel and all the other really emotional members (Larxene anyone?) Sora and the gang still thought they were all pretending?

    "Hey did you see how Saix kept screaming his lungs out during the entire battle?"
    "Yeah right? What a performance! Thank God he was faking it the whole time!"

  13. #103
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkosOverlord View Post
    And you know we're the greatest threat ever."
    The sad part is that these diddlyers really ARE incredibly hard to defeat on low level or even level 1. xD

    I also have to say I kinda don't like how the protags kept this "you dont feel shit" up. Especially after Axel. Anyone else COULD be faking but why would he when he's already dying to save Sora?

  14. #104
    "Indeeeeeeeeeeeeed." FudgemintGuardian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by maryadavies View Post
    Haha. Anyway I think I can somewhat justify that.

    1. He was told in the beginning that Nobodies don't really exist at all from Yen Sid.
    2. Most Nobodies..HURT people. Um, I know Sora doesn't like anyone that hurts people. Especially his friends. (Maybe he thought Demyx'd go after his friends, next.)
    3. Demyx called Sora a traitor. Um, I don't think anyone would take that very well.
    4. Prolly the mess in Olympus got Sora's goat a bit as well. I mean, Demyx was a thief (Stole that coin) and all that. That proly did NOT help.

    Add to the fact Demyx wouldn't get out of the way(so Sora could get to his friends who were in trouble), which was prolly the last straw.
    1. Can any of us really consider that a legitimate reason? This was something that really bothered me in KHII (Yay, another nitpick!) Yes, Org. XIII had and were doing a lot of badguy things, but it always felt like Sora's reasons for hating them was more to do with them lacking hearts than anything they've actually done

    2. Given Sora considered Demyx a total wimp, I doubt he thought Demyx could actually do anything to his friends (and if he did, then that just says what Sora thinks of his friends. XD) And Sora never says anything on the matter. He just taunts him. Which leads to..

    3. Which was only after Sora and Donald kept goading him. And being called a traitor right out of blue is a rather pathetic reason for murdering the guy.

    4. If Demyx had an actual hand in the destruction of Olympus Coliseum and tormenting Herc, then I could see good reason for Sora going after him. But all Demyx did was steal a magic coin with very limited use and ran the second he lost. And I guess he spilled water on Phil or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkosOverlord View Post
    "I also dropped a piece of paper, thus polluting the Underworld!"
    "YOU MONSTER"

    [Dunno if this is support, irony, or just a joke, but figured I'd roll with it.]
    Yes, yes, and yes~



    Quote Originally Posted by maryadavies View Post
    Darkos; didn't mean it that way. But there could be another reason. Could of he have been influenced by Roxas there? I don't know how Demyx treated Roxas; and I think it's been established that Roxas did influence Sora a little from the inside.
    Well, Demyx did dump a lot of his missions on Roxas in Days. XD
    Last edited by FudgemintGuardian; April 29, 2017 at 01:34 AM.

  15. #105
    eien no chikai catcake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Nah the actual canon reason is that Sora, like basically everyone who has ever played the game, hates the water clones with passion and after Demyx summons them for the second time he's had it with that bs and decides to make sure water will never dance again. Can't blame him.

 

 
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