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  1. #661
    Organization Member Rodin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkosOverlord View Post
    Yet another example that Nomura isn't necessarily a terrible writer, just an inexperienced one. Giving Kairi a rod of some sort would've differentiate her more as a character and kept her status as a Princess holding Princess powers, instead of clumping her with the rest.
    Because OBVIOUSLY she would get less presence that way. In which "Keyblade wielder needed" scenario was she going to be picked instead of Sora and Riku?
    I was talking more about the scene itself. To me the keyblade shouldn't be something you could toss to someone else. It would have been better if Riku tossed her a keychain or just walked her through the process of summoning it (sora or mickey might be better). Granted Riku probably just gave her the thing because it was faster to animate.

    Here's hoping the cartoon adaptation handles it better.

    I agree Kairi should have gotten another weapon/element but i don't think giving her a keyblade was a bad idea. Nomura was going to go deeper into the keyblade mythos (for good or ill) so giving her a keyblade suited that. Not using her in the following games was the actual bad idea. Her appearance in DDD was too little too late for me.

    New Query- Could Namine use her powers on Roxas as he was Sora's nobody?
    Last edited by Rodin; October 9, 2018 at 01:28 AM. Reason: more ideas.

  2. #662
    Keyblade Apprentice Guernsey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by kaseykockroach View Post
    I'm surprised and relieved that criticism for KH2 isn't as frowned upon around here as I feared it would be!

    I remember the days when KH2 was a lot of people's introduction to the franchise and the original was that boring clunky one.
    I was one of them but I think that both games are awesome in their right. I also noticed that KHIIFM tends to hailed as the best in the series but I think that that the future games were better.

    Quote Originally Posted by GronoTRIGGERED View Post
    It comes and goes. I pretty much became the edgy fedora-tipping "m'lady" version of a Kingdom Hearts fan where I just constantly shit on Kingdom Hearts II just because it had less platforming and the graphics were a little different (and better).

    I usually see a group of people spontaneously criticizing it then going right back to calling it the best in the franchise, rinse and repeat, until the universe ends in one cold apocalypse. I'll probably go into that a bit if I play KHIII and it's awesome, but we all try to be as fair as possible here, and that means that everything needs to be looked on with a critical eye sometimes xD

    The original is my favorite in terms of gameplay if you're wondering :) (but II's end game is objectively better, not going to beat around the bush)
    You said everything I was going to say but better.

  3. #663
    KH ☼ D&D ☼ Music ☼ Wack. GronoTRIGGERED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
    I was one of them but I think that both games are awesome in their right. I also noticed that KHIIFM tends to hailed as the best in the series but I think that that the future games were better.
    Hmm, which games do you think were better made? :D

    You said everything I was going to say but better.
    Aw, shucks *u*

  4. #664
    Larxeneboi and proud to be DarkosOverlord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by GronoTRIGGERED View Post
    I made a thread about this a while ago that didn't get great reception, but I don't think that it's "real" in the way that most things in the universe are. It's not like Data can't interact with the real world; we see Roxas interact with data twilight town, we see the real Riku interact with a data construction of Ansem the Wise inside Sora, and in Coded the real characters go back and forth between the Datascape and Disney Castle. Oh yeah, and Big Hero 6 now has bug blox and possibly Data Riku in it -_- But that's a rant for another time.

    Anyways, what I theorized is that Data Sora's keyblade is real, but it's different. His original was fake, made out of data, and so is the new one. But the new one is indestructible, so that implies that it's a true keyblade. I theorized that it's just made out of different stuff than other keyblades; Sora wields a keyblade of light, Mickey has a keyblade of darkness, Riku shortly wielded an incomplete keyblade of heart, and Data Sora has a keyblade of Data. That simple.

    Personally, I think it makes more sense. Lmk any flaws I saw in this, because I've been told I was wrong before.
    Bet I know what the answers in that thread were (maybe I also commented there, idr)
    I think this is a peculiar debate, because while it's true Nomura says Data Sora's Keyblade is made of data, it's the way the question was made that makes the entire thing iffy:

    "Data Sora can newly obtain a legitimate Keyblade during his adventure, but are there changes to the real Keyblade when that happens?"

    Like... wha? Why would... admittedly I don't know what the original sentence was, what kind of phrasing is this. I don't think this is quite the same thing as "Is Data Sora's Keyblade real?", which makes Nomura's answer also not entirely reliable in my mind.
    Like this he's just saying that the Keyblade is made of data, which could work the way you theorized.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I was talking more about the scene itself. To me the keyblade shouldn't be something you could toss to someone else. It would have been better if Riku tossed her a keychain or just walked her through the process of summoning it (sora or mickey might be better). Granted Riku probably just gave her the thing because it was faster to animate.

    Here's hoping the cartoon adaptation handles it better.

    I agree Kairi should have gotten another weapon/element but i don't think giving her a keyblade was a bad idea. Nomura was going to go deeper into the keyblade mythos (for good or ill) so giving her a keyblade suited that. Not using her in the following games was the actual bad idea. Her appearance in DDD was too little too late for me.
    The entire execution of the scene was ham-fisted, yeah.
    Well the problem is that Kairi gaining a Keyblade didn't really deepen any mythos (if anything it gave us potentially the biggest unanswered mystery of the franchise), and didn't make her more useful.
    Why? Because there were already 3-4 capable Keyblade wielders! And even Mickey gets the shaft in favor of Sora and Riku.

    I get why it happens: it's difficult to write for multiple prominent characters, all the more so if they have similar powers.
    Which is why you go the smart way about it and give them different powers, so that if one situation arises which could benefict more from a Princess of Light than a Keyblade wielder, you use Kairi there.
    Nomura just went "I have this kewl gizmo and I want to spread it around" that isn't *doomed* to be bad, but can certainly drive you into a corner.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    New Query- Could Namine use her powers on Roxas as he was Sora's nobody?
    See, I wanna say yes because Roxas is as connected to Sora as humanly possible, but apparently his very existence was preventing Naminé from doing the one thing she's supposed to be the best at. And there's no clear explanation, at least not when Days happened (in KH II she was just taking more time, which I can buy)
    So it's perfect for this thread.


    On a similar topic: the Org members needed Naminé for her rad powers, but apparently they were already pretty memory-savvy themselves, seen as they crafted cards out of memories WHILE FIGHTING.
    And it doesn't add up that it was Naminé all along and they were just putting on a show, because Vexen acted independently and against Marluxia and Ansem/DiZ could do it too.

  5. #665
    Unversed kaseykockroach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    You know how Christopher Robin doesn't appear in the Hundred Acre Wood levels because Sora takes that role and the former showing up would just be redundant?
    I've admittedly always thought they should have done the same with Aladdin himself in Agrabah. I can imagine either the developers or Disney themselves would be reluctant to do that, but I can't help but imagine more interesting interactions coming out of that. After all, it wouldn't necessarily mean removing the character, it'd just mean Sora wouldn't come across him during his visit to that world! Such as, perhaps SDG finding the Genie in the lamp and him being that world's party member?

  6. #666
    Keyblade Apprentice Guernsey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by GronoTRIGGERED View Post
    Hmm, which games do you think were better made? :D
    I think BBS and DDD have better level design than KH2 does. I really don't like the corridors of KH2 although it has some of the best combat in gaming, it lacks in the level design

  7. #667
    Organization Member Rodin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkosOverlord View Post
    Bet I know what the answers in that thread were (maybe I also commented there, idr)
    I think this is a peculiar debate, because while it's true Nomura says Data Sora's Keyblade is made of data, it's the way the question was made that makes the entire thing iffy:

    "Data Sora can newly obtain a legitimate Keyblade during his adventure, but are there changes to the real Keyblade when that happens?"

    Like... wha? Why would... admittedly I don't know what the original sentence was, what kind of phrasing is this. I don't think this is quite the same thing as "Is Data Sora's Keyblade real?", which makes Nomura's answer also not entirely reliable in my mind.
    Like this he's just saying that the Keyblade is made of data, which could work the way you theorized.




    The entire execution of the scene was ham-fisted, yeah.
    Well the problem is that Kairi gaining a Keyblade didn't really deepen any mythos (if anything it gave us potentially the biggest unanswered mystery of the franchise), and didn't make her more useful.
    Why? Because there were already 3-4 capable Keyblade wielders! And even Mickey gets the shaft in favor of Sora and Riku.

    I get why it happens: it's difficult to write for multiple prominent characters, all the more so if they have similar powers.
    Which is why you go the smart way about it and give them different powers, so that if one situation arises which could benefict more from a Princess of Light than a Keyblade wielder, you use Kairi there.
    Nomura just went "I have this kewl gizmo and I want to spread it around" that isn't *doomed* to be bad, but can certainly drive you into a corner.




    See, I wanna say yes because Roxas is as connected to Sora as humanly possible, but apparently his very existence was preventing Naminé from doing the one thing she's supposed to be the best at. And there's no clear explanation, at least not when Days happened (in KH II she was just taking more time, which I can buy)
    So it's perfect for this thread.


    On a similar topic: the Org members needed Naminé for her rad powers, but apparently they were already pretty memory-savvy themselves, seen as they crafted cards out of memories WHILE FIGHTING.
    And it doesn't add up that it was Naminé all along and they were just putting on a show, because Vexen acted independently and against Marluxia and Ansem/DiZ could do it too.
    I think Namine's memory powers were more suited for manipulating Sora. The Castle Six could manipulate memories but that was more of a product of Castle Oblivion than their own natural abilities. They probably couldn't do it outside Castle Oblivion nor do something as precise as replacing kairi with another person.

    By "deepening the mythos" I meant exploring the origins of the keyblade. Nomura was determined to explore that so giving Kairi and Riku made sense.

    The Keyblade is just a weapon to me. If you wanted different powersets why not just give them different elements like the organization or the BBS trio?

    The Keyblade didn't lead to Kairi being poorly handled. Nomura just got distracted by new ideas that he either forgot the ones he has or more likely he just couldn't balance both aspects.

    I guess Roxas being a mix of Sora and Ventus might have something to do with that. Maybe characters with multiple hearts are harder to manipulate with Namine's powers?
    Last edited by Rodin; October 11, 2018 at 12:43 PM.

  8. #668
    Larxeneboi and proud to be DarkosOverlord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by Guernsey View Post
    I think BBS and DDD have better level design than KH2 does. I really don't like the corridors of KH2 although it has some of the best combat in gaming, it lacks in the level design
    The 666th post in the nitpicks thread goes to criticizing KH II's level design.

    All is well in the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    By "deepening the mythos" I meant exploring the origins of the keyblade. Nomura was determined to explore that so giving Kairi and Riku made sense.
    It... really didn't deepen anything, though. Kairi and her Keyblade are still a black hole in the lore, and Riku getting his from Soul Eater was only vaguely acknowledged.
    I know LESS about the Keyblade than I did before thanks to Kairi and Riku.

    And, considering the next big narrative game after KH II was going to have a bunch of Keyblade wielders and an Order of such warriors, it really wasn't that necessary to handle them out like candies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    The Keyblade is just a weapon to me. If you wanted different powersets why not just give them different elements like the organization or the BBS trio?
    Because, since we are talking about the mythos and influence in the franchise and for the characters themselves, it's pretty clear the Keyblade really isn't just a weapon. It's something more, both in-universe and as a narrative tool.

    Also I didn't say anything about powersets, I'm talking about what could help a character sticking out more or less depending on the situations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    The Keyblade didn't lead to Kairi being poorly handled. Nomura just got distracted by new ideas that he either forgot the ones he has or more likely he just couldn't balance both aspects.
    Yes, and we said that.
    Then, there are elements that can influence the decision on how to handle a character and that can make things easier or harder in that regard.
    The Keyblade ALSO led to Kairi being poorly handled, because then she became one of the many, and was arguably less interesting and less easy to use than Keyblade wielders who were already prominent.
    Last edited by DarkosOverlord; October 11, 2018 at 04:19 PM.

  9. #669
    Organization Member Rodin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkosOverlord View Post
    The 666th post in the nitpicks thread goes to criticizing KH II's level design.

    All is well in the universe.



    It... really didn't deepen anything, though. Kairi and her Keyblade are still a black hole in the lore, and Riku getting his from Soul Eater was only vaguely acknowledged.
    I know LESS about the Keyblade than I did before thanks to Kairi and Riku.

    And, considering the next big narrative game after KH II was going to have a bunch of Keyblade wielders and an Order of such warriors, it really wasn't that necessary to handle them out like candies.



    Because, since we are talking about the mythos and influence in the franchise and for the characters themselves, it's pretty clear the Keyblade really isn't just a weapon. It's something more, both in-universe and as a narrative tool.

    Also I didn't say anything about powersets, I'm talking about what could help a character sticking out more or less depending on the situations.




    Yes, and we said that.
    Then, there are elements that can influence the decision on how to handle a character and that can make things easier or harder in that regard.
    The Keyblade ALSO led to Kairi being poorly handled, because then she became one of the many, and was arguably less interesting and less easy to use than Keyblade wielders who were already prominent.
    BBS started to dwelve into the keyblade's history and how it's passed from wielder to wielder. Not as deeply as Unchained but its a start. So I don't think connecting Riku and Terra/Kairi and Aqua was a bad idea. I just wished they followed up on it sooner than pushing it into kh3.

    You did mention different power sets being used to differentiate characters in your other post so i just followed up on it.

    Tbh I never saw Kairi as well as used so I never saw the keyblade as the cause. I just saw her as an afterthought that nomura lost track off.

    other query- Are mickey's worlds in DDD memories? Sora/Riku's journey was too find "sleeping" worlds so maybe mickey's memories were a way to introduce time travel?

  10. #670
    KH ☼ D&D ☼ Music ☼ Wack. GronoTRIGGERED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Do you think that Goofy had an out-of-body experience when he got hit by that rock in II and can time travel now? I'm really looking forward to fygoox now.

  11. #671
    Unversed kaseykockroach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    This is not nitpicking the games themselves, rather the response...if that makes any sense.

    I am so so sick and tired of the "HEAL ME DONALD!" jokes.
    It's been an ongoing thing since the franchise's very beginning, and it has yet to stop being unfunny and obnoxious.
    It's not quite as cringe-inducing as the "Donald Duck/Trump" jokes (if you can even call them jokes), but it's up there.
    It's long baffled me since playing KH1 for the very first time. D&G were fairly reliable from the get-go, once you figure out how to sort their inventory (give Donald ethers, give Goofy potions, don't stock them up with the same items, avoid that redundancy), so coming across all the wisecracks about how useless they are was utterly surreal. What do these people want, for them to play the game for you and take out an entire room of enemies without you having to do anything?

  12. #672
    Larxeneboi and proud to be DarkosOverlord's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Mulan gets a new sword at the end of the first visit and doesn't use it in the second visit.
    I cannot imagine they gave her a weaker sword than the one she was using. Also, no one would know what she did for China then.

  13. #673
    Unversed kaseykockroach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Perhaps it was given as more of a trophy than as a weapon?

  14. #674
    KH ☼ D&D ☼ Music ☼ Wack. GronoTRIGGERED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kingdom Hearts Nitpicks

    Nitpick time: Since Nomura is a character designer, this comes as no surprise, but why is nearly every single final fantasy character featured in the series bafflingly different from their game counterparts?

 

 
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