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  1. #31
    Silver Member Magnus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Yeah, people who brush off voting against other people's equal rights as "just a difference of opinion" can go diddly themselves. We can have an actual difference of opinion on many different issues, like how our taxpayer money is best distributed, but if you're fine with treating me like a second class citizen because I'm a minority then you're certainly no friend of mine.

  2. #32
    Nobody VenceSkycloud's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    You're all missing the point. In my post, I clearly say that disliking someone based upon WHAT THEY HAVE DONE is fine. You disagree with ehat they have done, that's fine. However, I can't stress this enough,

    Just because someone is a Liberal or a Conservative is no reason to hate/dislike them. End of story.

    There are TONS of good people in the world regardless of their political affiliation. Disliking or Hating someone based off of being a Democrat or Republican is the same thing as hating someone for nothing more than their skin color, or being Gay.
    Gay people are evil, Asian people are racists, Transgender people are insane, Republicans are monsters.

    They're all the same type of statements: they make everyone who even remotely fits that label look bad. Racism is terrible, sexism is awful, and there are a lot of things in the world that need to be improved. Everyone's mindset is one of them.

    One of the problems is everyone tries to make everyone else look like the villian. The only villians are the ones making the mistakes and choices that lead to opressing minorities, loss of jobs, etc.

    At the end of the day, vote and accept people not based on a "party" or label, but based on the PERSON. If they support what you support, and have the same views as you awesome! And if you disagree with some things, cool then disagree. And the opposite is also true, if they're someone who advocates for opression, racism etc. Then boycott them.
    Politics do affect communites and people's lives, and in no way am i saying that politics themselves don't matter, because they do. However, the toipc at hand is simply about disliking someone based on political party alone.

    The best examples I can give are these:
    1) Everyone would have hated Hitler regardless if he was Republican or Democratic. He was a horrbile person who did awful things. End of story.
    2) It would be like if you had a best friend, did everything together, always made you laugh and always helped/supported you, was always there when you need, and you suddenly stop talking to them and cut ties altogether just because their political party is different from yours, and you found out.

    Again, I'm not defending any one particular party or saying any one is better than the other etc. The genuine fact at the end of the day, is every individual person is different and you should base your liking of them on whether you feel they're a good person, they're entertaining etc. That's all. Not all Republicans are bad, not all Democrats are good and vice-versa.

  3. #33
    Bronze Member Tartarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Quote Originally Posted by VenceSkycloud View Post
    You're all missing the point.
    Nobody missed your point, some of us just don't agree with it at all. Empowering a monster like Trump or choosing to do nothing to stop him, which is practically the same thing, is a CHOICE, and trying to equalize that with something like sex, race, sexuality, that someone is born as and can't change as your Hail Mary--especially considering the reason Drumpf is a monster is because he's helped bring discrimination based on all of those factors back in vogue--is the most disgusting thing here. No, I'm not going to be friends with someone I know does not / will not care about anything that happens to me. They are not victims.

    We only have vague things to go on about Flynn, but we've moved on from discussing him specifically to discussing disliking someone for their political choices in general. I can completely understand why somebody would make a thread like this one, wondering if they should help to give money to / employ a celebrity who is enabling the destruction of their rights. 2016 and onwards has exposed a lot of people I thought were friends or good people or allies that aren't when it comes down to it, both in real life and in the media. It's good to know what people really are, to know when to move away from people who may smile to your face but only wish you ill.

  4. #34
    ✧ G L A M A Z O N ✧ Rydgea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Each individual is different, and I understand the value in your outlook, Vence. There's not one blanket view all party affiliates share; nobody is strictly in alignment. Gerrymandering aside, our democracy offers the luxury of being able to cherry-pick your values regardless of what political party you identify with. You could be a left-leaning Republican or a conservative Democrat.

    I'd like to point out that Trump is polarizing among his own party.

    It still doesn't change the fact that those who voted for such a divisive candidate must shoulder the responsibility for their destructive choices and make reparations. But we keep getting salt in the wound. We just swore in a "conservative" Supreme Court Justice accused of rape after a weak investigation.

    I still carry some bitterness towards those in my own party who cast for Jill Stein and Gary Johnson as well, considering the volatile nature of DJ Squirrel Hair, not to mention every loudmouth couch potato who couldn't be bothered to shift their weight to vote for their own lives.

  5. #35
    we wanted more alexis.anagram's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydgea View Post
    Each individual is different, and I understand the value in your outlook, Vence. There's not one blanket view all party affiliates share; nobody is strictly in alignment. Gerrymandering aside, our democracy offers the luxury of being able to cherry-pick your values regardless of what political party you identify with. You could be a left-leaning Republican or a conservative Democrat.

    I'd like to point out that Trump is polarizing among his own party.

    It still doesn't change the fact that those who voted for such a divisive candidate must shoulder the responsibility for their destructive choices and make reparations. But we keep getting salt in the wound. We just swore in a "conservative" Supreme Court Justice accused of rape after a weak investigation.

    I still carry some bitterness towards those in my own party who cast for Jill Stein and Gary Johnson as well, considering the volatile nature of DJ Squirrel Hair, not to mention every loudmouth couch potato who couldn't be bothered to shift their weight to vote for their own lives.
    It's worth noting that you mention the accusations which stand against Kavanaugh in context of the 2016 elections, when Democrats would have without a second thought placed Bill Clinton, a man who likewise has standing accusations of rape against him which have never been properly investigated, back into the White House. This is, by the way, the reason that Hillary could never nail Trump on the categorically awful ways he views and treats women, because who is she to talk when she chose to remain married to and act in defense of a man who displays or at least has been said to display the same general behavioral traits in his known relationships with women, with only the benefit of a more prudent style of rhetoric to keep him out of trouble.

    This speaks to the toxic problem with rank partisanship, presumably anywhere, but in the U.S. especially, where the two party duopoly contrives this dichotomous framework wherein people are typically offered only awful and worse "choices" and are expected to act (and vote) either out of self-imposed ignorance or by consecrating a political narrative, no matter how inauthentic, which ascribes to their desired outlook. Whether that means papering over Hillary's embarrassing history with LGBTQ politics and her disastrous and racist advocacy surrounding immigration policy and crime in black and brown communities (among other things) if one is a Democrat, or indulging Trump's thinly veiled white nationalism and alarmist strong-man agenda as something other than what they are if one is a Republican (please note I am only using them as figureheads illustrative of a political moment, not to re-engage the endless litigation of 2016), all while casting vague aspersions ("baskets of deplorables"; literally anything Trump ever said or thought) in the general direction of the "alternative" not as a matter of delineating where one affiliation stands opposed to the other on principle or, indeed, on record, but of actively drawing attention away from those hard and measurable matters to fashion campaigns out of weak rhetoric and the kind of constant equivocation which is what the voting (and non-voting) public is made to believe it deserves.

    And the only way to combat this is to do the opposite of what is expected and resist and advocate on matters of principle, and dispense with the formalities of respectability in politics (which is just a way of training oneself to lie and manipulate better than one's opponent) and to fight to end or at least disrupt the two party system by working from the outside in. Because within the two party, winner-takes-all system, people can't freely exercise their politics and "cherry pick" their values: they vote on a strictly binary mandate regardless of how they identify, and the extent to which those elected do or do not mirror their conservative/liberal spectrum of values is the extent to which that is or is not represented in the arenas where policy is made, full stop. i.e. A "socially liberal economic conservative" in the U.S. does not vote for the complement of their values, they vote for a Republican-- or maybe a New Democrat if they have the wealth and political access to justify it. It's a highly rigid and compartmentalized vision of "democracy" and that's reflected in the sheer volume of eligible participants who choose to stay home or to seek other ways to engage politically, to say nothing of the large numbers who are impacted by restrictive voting laws like Voter ID and obstructive registration deadlines.

    The U.S. isn't just afflicted with the fallout from trickle-down economics but, increasingly, seems to be struggling with the dangerous impacts of trickle-down politics in which the agenda is not set by the people who have to live with it but rather by the people who live to enact it according to their own best interests, and you get to vote for who makes the most promises not to diddly you over in the process (and watch them betray those promises more often than not). Such that knowing a person's party affiliation tells you a little bit about who they'll vote for but much less about what they actually believe or want or know about the political situation in the country.

    And choosing to blame people who simply exercised their excessively limited right to vote or not vote for the failures of a system that doesn't address them and consistently places them behind the egos and power fantasies of their so-called leaders is highly counterproductive. I love the insight this article brings to a range of voters and non-voters and where they were at in 2016: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/many-in-milwaukee-neighborhood-didnt-vote-and-dont-regret-it.html

    As well as this one more recently: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/04/u...ng-voters.html

  6. #36
    Bronze Member Tartarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    I don't see the point in getting down in the weeds over Hillary Clinton considering it all ends up as nothing but bullshit in the air since misogyny's the only X factor that could ever sufficiently explain why a rational human being could argue with a straight face that an average, run-of-the-mill politician is "just as dangerous" or "exactly the same" as a fascist demagogic wannabe dictator who cites Neo-Nazi statistics and employs white supremacists. The one thing I will say is that Bill Clinton was investigated, but whether he is guilty or not has nothing to do with it considering he was not on the ballot at any point in 2016.

    If you think voting third party has "disrupted" the two-party system, you're delusional. All you might've disrupted is democracy itself--not to mention allowing the full-on assault against the advancements in human rights for the past century--by abdicating civic responsibility and allowing a monster in through the front door, but whether or not the U.S. / world survive this deranged lunatic (and others like him that have been inspired by his win) won't change anything about the fact that only two people will have a viable shot at the White House every election in our lifetimes. It's all a matter of what you're willing to sacrifice in the mean-time, as if there is going to be much left to sacrifice or time to waste in the coming years thanks to climate change. Either way, if you're a celebrity, don't expect me to want to want to throw so much as a penny your way for helping open up this hellpit.

  7. #37
    we wanted more alexis.anagram's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartarus View Post
    I don't see the point in getting down in the weeds over Hillary Clinton considering it all ends up as nothing but bullshit in the air since misogyny's the only X factor that could ever sufficiently explain why a rational human being could argue with a straight face that an average, run-of-the-mill politician is "just as dangerous" or "exactly the same" as a fascist demagogic wannabe dictator who cites Neo-Nazi statistics and employs white supremacists.
    You disproved your own claim here: the global political sphere is encountering a climate of dissatisfaction with decades of "run-of-the-mill" neoliberal policy and as a result movements towards both the populist left and right are gaining traction everywhere-- Clinton encountered exactly the kind of opposition any politically literate person would have anticipated outside of the bubble that is Washington D.C. especially given that she was already vetted during her 2008 primary against Barack Obama and lost while he ran on a largely populist platform, and then almost managed to lose again to Bernie Sanders and arguably did given that he became the most popular politician in the country while Clinton ran for president as one of the least liked candidates in history, second only to Donald Trump himself. And then we have to rationalize how misogyny directed presumed (and that is the key word here) Clinton voters to...Jill Stein.

    Of course Clinton encountered misogyny during her run (one quote in one of the articles I provided in my post above is proof of that) and of course Trump himself is a misogynist, but to frame that as some sort of single issue up on which voters staked their political and economic futures is decidedly myopic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartarus View Post
    The one thing I will say is that Bill Clinton was investigated, but whether he is guilty or not has nothing to do with it considering he was not on the ballot at any point in 2016.
    He was technically investigated but after impeachment the charges were largely abandoned and he's never been seriously made to answer for them, any more than Kavanaugh answered for the accusations against himself. It's disingenuous to argue that he wasn't on the ballot because the Clintons are a package deal, and Hillary's election would have placed him back in the White House and a position of power over others-- power which he has abused in the past. It also called into question Hillary Clinton's own record and perspective on this issue, because she chose to remain married to him, to defend his reputation over the allegations of the women who came forward, and ultimately to make him an installment in her own presidential bid which made him, like it or not, part of the conversation around her campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartarus View Post
    If you think voting third party has "disrupted" the two-party system, you're delusional. All you might've disrupted is democracy itself--not to mention allowing the full-on assault against the advancements in human rights for the past century--by abdicating civic responsibility and allowing a monster in through the front door, but whether or not the U.S. / world survive this deranged lunatic (and others like him that have been inspired by his win) won't change anything about the fact that only two people will have a viable shot at the White House every election in our lifetimes. It's all a matter of what you're willing to sacrifice in the mean-time, as if there is going to be much left to sacrifice or time to waste in the coming years thanks to climate change. Either way, if you're a celebrity, don't expect me to want to want to throw so much as a penny your way for helping open up this hellpit.
    Democracy isn't "disrupted" when people exercise their suffrage in accordance with their own best interests or moral/ethical values systems, which in a functional democracy should not always be expected to occur in line with structural norms or establishment interests: rather the mindset that a certain candidate is entitled to support in rising to power based on nothing but stated or assumed allegiance to a particular worldview or political objective is indicative of a tyrannical and authoritarian mindset not unlike that of Trump, but then I remember when Trump was called dictatorial for stating he would not honor the results of the election if they were not in his favor and now the Democrats have spent the past two years refusing to accept the validity of the election results and seeking out every possible political scapegoat to excuse their insufficiencies as a party. Because it really is a difference of millimeters and not inches.

    The problem with advocating for the self-fulfilling prophecy of the two party duopoly is just that: it's self-fulfilling. The central question is not, in fact, what will be sacrificed in the span between elections based on the theoretical terror of a Republican administration vs the theoretical virtues/lesser terrors of a Democratic one: before that, we have to acknowledge that as long as only two parties exist, we are guaranteed one or the other eventually. The two party system doesn't just make Trump possible: it makes him inevitable. Meanwhile actual solutions like ranked-choice voting are ignored or deliberately undermined by the national establishments because they terrify Republicans, who know they aren't popular enough to withstand an actual third party uprising, and Democrats, who couldn't stand to lose the "spoiler effect" excuse they play out every time they whiff an election and there's a third party on the ticket.

    At the end of the day, nobody should expect support from an electorate or, say, customer base with which they have fundamental and critical differences of perspective. And as that was my fraught attempt to keep this post on-topic, I'll add that I agree with the sentiment that if Quinton Flynn is engaging in actions or advocacy which interfere with the potential for people to live their lives, have equal rights, etc. he doesn't deserve support and definitely deserves to be challenged on that front.

  8. #38
    Bronze Member Tartarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Quote Originally Posted by alexis.anagram View Post
    You disproved your own claim here: the global political sphere is encountering a climate of dissatisfaction with decades of "run-of-the-mill" neoliberal policy and as a result movements towards both the populist left and right are gaining traction everywhere
    This doesn't disprove anything. Dissatisfaction with regular politicians doesn't in any way equalize them with a monster like Trump. That's just an excuse to assuage your conscience for having allowed something like Trump to be a reality.
    arguably did given that he became the most popular politician in the country while Clinton ran for president as one of the least liked candidates in history, second only to Donald Trump himself.
    She didn't lose to him. She beat him by 4 million votes because Democrats hadn't lost their heads at that point and allowed a socialist outsider to usurp their party like the Republicans allowed a fascist to do to theirs. Moreover, there's the point that Bernie got an easy go of it; all guns were on Hillary from the moment the election began because nobody believed a socialist would beat her. The Republicans were attacking her most of all even during the primaries and the media gave Bernie nothing but positive attention to distract from what looked like an otherwise boring, predictable election result--the same way they gave Trump nonstop airtime throughout the general election and allowed his antics to distract from actual policy because it drew in ratings and money. There's also the fact that Hillary went through the general election unlike Bernie, and experienced the darkest campaign in modern history that involved the intervention of outside forces. No other candidate has been treated the way Hillary was then or now. The fact that she was the first woman in her position--having just followed the first black president--isn't a coincidence, it's the explanation for why Trump was given a pass for being indecent, inhumane, and dangerous.

    And then we have to rationalize how misogyny directed presumed (and that is the key word here) Clinton voters to...Jill Stein.
    It's not hard to explain. It's much easier to 'suffer' voting for a woman you know deep down will never be president than vote for one who could be.

    Of course Clinton encountered misogyny during her run (one quote in one of the articles I provided in my post above is proof of that) and of course Trump himself is a misogynist, but to frame that as some sort of single issue up on which voters staked their political and economic futures is decidedly myopic.
    It's also true.

    He was technically investigated
    You could have just ended it there. There's also the fact that his accusers also supported Trump at the debates (a self-admitted predator, accused by 10+ of harassment, rape, and in one case molestation) and then came out again recently to support Kavanaugh. They also staked their career on going after a woman who didn't commit the crime and has nothing to do with them. What does that say about their motivation?

    You could only consider Bill Clinton relevant if you think Hillary is just a puppet who he's using to get another term in office. That's incredibly reductive to her as a politician on her own merits, but not surprising to read. At most you could criticize her for believing her husband over outsiders, and considering they're both in politics and considering the type of smears that have also been enacted on her then (and now), it's not hard to understand why a wife might stay in that situation.

    Democracy isn't "disrupted" when people exercise their suffrage in accordance with their own best interests or moral/ethical values systems
    Democracy is subverted when you do nothing to stop someone who is openly hostile to democratic norms, who makes his allegiance to dictators in Russia, North Korea, Hungary, Erdogan, the Phillipines, blatant while denigrating democratically-elected allies like Theresa May, Angela Merkel, Trudeau, etc., who jokes about making himself a president for life, from seizing power. And I can't say there's anything moral about a person's inaction in that situation either. Complaining about the two-party system is like complaining about the Electoral College--yes, it's disgusting, if only it would go away, only that's never going to happen because the only party that would want to do away with either will never have 75% control of the Senate and Congress to accomplish it. It's an easy game to play with other people's lives in the meantime.

    And, for what it's worth, I don't agree with this load of bothsidesism that's been spewed since 2015 because it only ever existed to be self-serving to demagogues like Trump and Bernie. Of course they want us to see Democrats as morally equivalent to them, because then we'll stand back and allow them--the real dangers--to take control. It was a lie then, and it's especially galling to see the same lie still spewed now that everything that people warned about Trump has become reality. Do I believe there are things that could be better about Democrats and/or Hillary? Yes, the same that could be said of any political party even if we lived in a place where there was ranked voting, but I've never felt like they don't reflect what I believe. And to make statements that they are morally equivalent to Trump is, to me, immoral and dangerous because of how false they are and the can of worms they've unleashed. *shrug*
    Last edited by Tartarus; October 11, 2018 at 02:29 AM.

  9. #39
    we wanted more alexis.anagram's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartarus View Post
    It's not hard to explain. It's much easier to 'suffer' voting for a woman you know deep down will never be president than vote for one who could be.
    Haha, ok. I mean I think this is a great sort of singular example of how the general Democratic line of defense right now is a host of internal contradictions and a failure to read the political tea leaves, which has led them to engage in a lot of mud slinging against the right and the progressive left but not much in the way of substantial policy advocacy that would make a person want to get up and actually vote Democrat-- not to mention the usual collaboration between Dems and Republicans on passing the most dangerous policies in the Trump era. If Trump is such a dangerous, megalomaniac autocrat, why did the Dems just help advance him a massive defense spending bill over and above what he was asking for? Why did they (including Clinton's running mate, Tim Kaine) roll over and help the Republicans roll back bank regulations which Obama put in place in order to help out Trump's buddies on Wall Street? He's a "monster" when it's convenient for them, when it fits with their rhetoric, or when they think it will make for good electoral strategy, but they don't oppose his ideas or his objectives on principle. If there's a moral equivalency to be drawn, it's on that basis: the fact that Democrats don't stand in opposition to Trump's agenda when it counts gives the impression, at least, that they don't have sufficient grounds to stand on.

  10. #40
    ✧ G L A M A Z O N ✧ Rydgea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    I don't think anyone here is saying that Hilary or anyone under the DNC was the perfect candidate for their time, but I absolutely have the right to feel upset by those who demand change but refuse to mobilize, even if its for damage control. Don't talk at me. Do something.

    Even so, I'm not speaking as if I place the entire weight of a politician's (in)actions on the citizenry. I do realize these are people weary from no discernible change in their lives. There's many other ways to get involved and cherry pick your values as I mentioned before, in your communities alone. It's hard for all of us. We're all tired, and we all have a million excuses not to save everything from the fire. Life is hard. But no, I don't care how cynical or jaded you are about the Obama administration or any administration, because that's a large makeup of the nation. Even the article you linked mentioned that just having a Obama as president was good for their black sons (but note, not daughters). Maybe those same sons will produce results now that they've been empowered.

    You don't regret being sedentary, but you're offended that someone you let in office embolden a staunch mass of degenerates? You were complicit by doing nothing, the inactivity of the same lazy official you elected apparently rubbed off on you, and things went from stagnant to worse. Yes, you can take responsibility for whatever small part you did/didn't play, and tell yourself it's inconsequential however many times you need to hear the affirmation until you believe it. While we work towards a better system outside of this very rigid facade, yes, we can agree that we're all subjected to corruption in politics, but there's still going to be voter turnout, and if this pageant is going to play out, and it will for now, then I want to secure someone that best represents a better future, not a "better" past which isolates every minority.

  11. #41
    we wanted more alexis.anagram's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydgea View Post
    I don't think anyone here is saying that Hilary or anyone under the DNC was the perfect candidate for their time, but I absolutely have the right to feel upset by those who demand change but refuse to mobilize, even if its for damage control. Don't talk at me. Do something.

    Even so, I'm not speaking as if I place the entire weight of a politician's (in)actions on the citizenry. I do realize these are people weary from no discernible change in their lives. There's many other ways to get involved and cherry pick your values as I mentioned before, in your communities alone. It's hard for all of us. We're all tired, and we all have a million excuses not to save everything from the fire. Life is hard. But no, I don't care how cynical or jaded you are about the Obama administration or any administration, because that's a large makeup of the nation. Even the article you linked mentioned that just having a Obama as president was good for their black sons (but note, not daughters). Maybe those same sons will produce results now that they've been empowered.
    Yes, because not everything is black and white because people do not live single-issue, simple neat and tidy lives, and especially for PoC we have been trained to recognize and appreciate the significance of even a symbolic gesture because more often than not that's all we ever get anyways. The flip side of that is never allowing symbolism to pass for progress or to allow ourselves or especially those in power to be made complacent by it: history has taught us that if we don't push for every milestone we'll never make an inch of progress, so at the same time that we recognize the impact of the Obama Presidency as an image we have to be stoic and formidable in our critique of its lived reality and what has happened as a result of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydgea View Post
    You don't regret being sedentary, but you're offended that someone you let in office embolden a staunch mass of degenerates? You were complicit by doing nothing, the inactivity of the same lazy official you elected apparently rubbed off on you, and things went from stagnant to worse. Yes, you can take responsibility for whatever small part you did/didn't play, and tell yourself it's inconsequential however many times you need to hear the affirmation until you believe it. While we work towards a better system outside of this very rigid facade, yes, we can agree that we're all subjected to corruption in politics, but there's still going to be voter turnout, and if this pageant is going to play out, and it will for now, then I want to secure someone that best represents a better future, not a "better" past which isolates every minority.
    Then it's incumbent upon the desirable candidate to apply all of the political capital at their disposal to make that case and beat out their opponent by winning the hearts and minds of the nation, nothing more and nothing less. Voter shaming is an exercise in futility, there's no use in wagging your finger at voters in Wisconsin when Clinton couldn't even be bothered to set foot there and try to answer for that "better future" she was supposedly offering entire communities which had been gutted by more than a decade (not just Obama, but Bush and Bill too) of neoliberal free trade and the hollowing out of the middle class vis-a-vis bank deregulation. There's no use qualifying the election results as a failure of working class voters to mobilize when Chuck Schumer is literally out there telling the nation the party's electoral strategy is to lose blue-collar Democrats in rural areas and gain moderate Republicans in the suburbs. There's no use making it out like voters somehow failed in their civic duty when Clinton actually won the popular vote but was knocked out by an archaic electoral process none of us put in place and many voters are uninformed about but which she was perfectly aware of and should have factored into her campaign strategy. Even if you believe the irrational line that somehow third parties don't have a right to exist whenever it's inconvenient for Democrats (talk about autocracy), there's no use harping about the imagined complicity of those voters when ranked-choice voting would eliminate the winner-takes-all mentality that puts people between a rock and a hard place when it comes to pulling the lever on conscience as opposed to cynical, desperate gambits which is exactly where the two parties want people every election season. And if you really want to talk about complicity, don't look to voters, look to the Clinton campaign which we know was tipping the scales for Donald Trump during the primaries and doing their utmost to make him a viable candidate through media outreach. These were or are all examples of actionable matters and making accusatory gestures towards the electorate doesn't solve any of them. Voter shaming is easy because it's nothing but talk, all the time, so to refurnish your opening thesis on the ills of the country: Don't talk at me. Do something.

  12. #42
    Bronze Member Tartarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Quote Originally Posted by alexis.anagram View Post
    Voter shaming is an exercise in futility
    So is wasting time listening to people moral equivocate--trying to sell us a lie that molehills hold exactly the same weight as mountains--who don't care either way what happens to anyone at all.

    Even if you believe the irrational line that somehow third parties don't have a right to exist whenever it's inconvenient for Democrats (talk about autocracy),
    Nobody said that, so who's being irrational here?

    there's no use harping about the imagined complicity of those voters when ranked-choice voting would eliminate the winner-takes-all mentality
    Except those voters are unwilling to vote to put the party in power that might actually undo the system. They don't get to lecture anyone when they don't do anything because it's nothing but hollow, empty mutterings. I've lost all patience with giving lies like the above traction and validity, enabling them to enact real damage on all of us, when they're blatant nonsense.

  13. #43
    ✧ G L A M A Z O N ✧ Rydgea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Alexis, since you challenged me on it, I don’t want you misconstruing my response to Vence (with which I was trying to bridge a gap) about the disappointment I felt from the night of the 2016 election. I certainly don’t go around bludgeoning people with righteous indignation for not voting. I’ve said it before, that I share the lethargy from it all with everyone else. I know you and I can agree that people in power need to be afraid, that people in power need to be held accountable. My auditing eyes are there with you. Though there’s no scientific evidence to suggest that Hillary campaigning in Wisconsin would have affected her numbers, I do feel like the efforts weren’t the strongest.

    We could probably discuss corrupt politicians for the rest of our lives without exhausting the topic. I hope we discuss change instead. But if you’re engaging me based on feelings which don’t dictate my life by but that I feel comfortable sharing with you, then you need to know that my actions are that I encourage/help people to register to vote and don’t give them the third degree. But there’s no convincing me that after you’ve yammered on about your political alignment in these federal elections to your insular circle of Facebook friends that your sudden ineligibility to visit the polls during was constructive. It wasn’t and washing your hands of =/= protesting.

    You can’t be on about radical reformation and giving power back to the people if you’re going to encourage dormancy after mankind, in its still-primitive stage, finally received some variation (outside of the party-system), one black, cis male symbol in this position, regardless whether or not you believe he was an effectual leader.
    Last edited by Rydgea; October 11, 2018 at 10:42 PM.

  14. #44
    we wanted more alexis.anagram's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartarus View Post
    So is wasting time listening to people moral equivocate--trying to sell us a lie that molehills hold exactly the same weight as mountains--who don't care either way what happens to anyone at all.
    It isn't necessary to believe that one political party is equally as onerous as the other in order to reject both on principle. But then Clinton supporters are typically the chief progenitors of moral equivocation in these subjects of conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartarus View Post
    Nobody said that, so who's being irrational here?
    Please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartarus View Post
    Except those voters are unwilling to vote to put the party in power that might actually undo the system. They don't get to lecture anyone when they don't do anything because it's nothing but hollow, empty mutterings. I've lost all patience with giving lies like the above traction and validity, enabling them to enact real damage on all of us, when they're blatant nonsense.
    Voting is not the only political mechanism for change. It has its time and place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydgea View Post
    Alexis, since you challenged me on it, I don’t want you misconstruing my response to Vence (with which I was trying to bridge a gap) about the disappointment I felt from the night of the 2016 election. I certainly don’t go around bludgeoning people with righteous indignation for not voting. I’ve said it before, that I share the lethargy from it all with everyone else. I know you and I can agree that people in power need to be afraid, that people in power need to be held accountable. My auditing eyes are there with you. Though there’s no scientific evidence to suggest that Hillary campaigning in Wisconsin would have affected her numbers, I do feel like the efforts weren’t the strongest.

    We could probably discuss corrupt politicians for the rest of our lives without exhausting the topic. I hope we discuss change instead. But if you’re engaging me based on feelings which don’t dictate my life by but that I feel comfortable sharing with you, then you need to know that my actions are that I encourage/help people to register to vote and don’t give them the third degree. But there’s no convincing me that after you’ve yammered on about your political alignment in these federal elections to your insular circle of Facebook friends that your sudden ineligibility to visit the polls during was constructive. It wasn’t and washing your hands of =/= protesting.

    You can’t be on about radical reformation and giving power back to the people if you’re going to encourage dormancy after mankind, in its still-primitive stage, finally received some variation (outside of the party-system), one black, cis male symbol in this position, regardless whether or not you believe he was an effectual leader.
    Your error here is in advocating suffrage as some sort of moral salve which is to be used to ward off the stench of political indifference while providing a veneer of authority and superiority over the disenfranchised. I don't doubt you work off of the best of intentions, but if we're keeping it real, you're not convincing anyone with these vague, reductive presumptions as to the political realities they live in and artful minimization of the inadequacies of our political power structures and the people who have occupied it at the highest level. You've tokenized Obama in the way liberals love to do to with influential (and especially racialized) figures in order to make them accessible not as actors and influencers but as sanitized still portraits, representative vectors through which history can be said to have worked its time. It's a failed strategy: voters aren't incentivized by the threat of a return to the dark ages promised by people with the privilege not to already be living in them.

  15. #45
    Bronze Member Tartarus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Quinton Flynn Right Wing/conservative

    Quote Originally Posted by alexis.anagram View Post
    It isn't necessary to believe that one political party is equally as onerous as the other in order to reject both on principle. But then Clinton supporters are typically the chief progenitors of moral equivocation in these subjects of conversation.
    You can't be serious? Because it seems like independents and Republicans are the only people who go on these BOTH SIDES spiels--because they are self-serving to them alone. I don't see anything different between my criticizing Trump voters and the independent voters who did nothing to stop him from those who equalize Democrats and Republicans as if they're one and the same. Even Gary Johnson himself was urging his voters to vote for Hillary after Comey knifed her, because of the consequences that doing nothing to stop Trump has brought on the U.S. and the rest of the world.

    Please.
    Yes, please. Before your side diversion down the HRC rabbit hole, the discussion was about whether or not it’s wrong to dislike someone for enabling Trump.

    I don't see anything wrong with it. For me, that includes more than just people who voted for him outright, but those who recognized what he was and did nothing. You can’t pretend to care about human rights, environmental issues, poverty, your wives and daughters, your LGBT friends, etc. out of one side of your mouth then do nothing to stop a threat on all those fronts like Trump and not expect the people around you to side-eye you and then back away.

    Aside from that, I'll say that, as a Christian, while I would cut myself off from certain people for my own well-being, I know that we all do bad things, can be forgiven, etc. and I wish them well from a distance. I just have no interest in having that in my daily life when I can avoid it. We have enough cruelty, insanity, and human indecency thrust on us from the Oval Office these days to be going along with.

 

 
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