SE messed up.

[alwe9704]

I don't think i'm the first one to bring this up but at the end of 358/2 days. I mean, Xion had the memories of Kairi inside of her and as Oathkeeper was made of Sora's memories of Kairi that Roxas's Oathkeeper should be coming from her. But when Riku is handed oblivion by Roxas images of Xion flashes trough his head. But since Xion was made of Sora's memories of Kairi and not Riku why did he recall Xion when he grabbed it?

[Grace Assassin]

She was made of replicated memories of Kairi, not Sora's actual memories of Kairi.

As for why they ended up in Oblivion, yes, that's a subject of debate.
You could postulate that it has something to do with her connection to Riku (seen in the memory distortion scene).

[alex=axel]

maybe he likes the look of the oblivion? if you overcomplicate things you'll start to hate the game.

[Smile]

Originally Posted by alwe9704

I don't think i'm the first one to bring this up but at the end of 358/2 days. I mean, Xion had the memories of Kairi inside of her and as Oathkeeper was made of Sora's memories of Kairi that Roxas's Oathkeeper should be coming from her. But when Riku is handed oblivion by Roxas images of Xion flashes trough his head. But since Xion was made of Sora's memories of Kairi and not Riku why did he recall Xion when he grabbed it?

Originally Posted by Days Ultimania

The name of the keyblade that is given to Riku suggests that it has something to do with Xion.

I think it's just him pulling it out of nowhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a hidden meaning there, and a possible tie-in between her and Riku.

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

She was made of replicated memories of Kairi, not Sora's actual memories of Kairi.

Not going by the game. Sora's Memories really were leaking outside. From Sora to Roxas, and from Roxas to Xion. Hence why so long as Xion remained in existence, she kept those Memories, and Sora couldn't wake up. What was cloned was Sora's powers that took the shape of his Keyblade, through the Memories she received.
However, the Memories were those of Sora himself. They never once even implied the Memories Xion had in her were replicas. Would kind of make the whole point of her needing to disappear redundant, imo. Unless you want to enlighten me about something I missed. I certainly saw none of it in the game, nor the secret reports, and even less in the Ultimania.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by Smile

I
Not going by the game. Sora's Memories really were leaking outside.

Never claimed otherwise. His memories were leaking out in part because her memories of Kairi were replicated.

That is, there were two of the same memories of Kairi, the original in Sora and the replicas in Kairi. When Sora's memories started flowing out, they connected with Xion's replicated memories.

Originally Posted by Smile

I
They never once even implied the Memories Xion had in her were replicas.

Xemnas, Day 354.
Can't find a video of it right now other than the Japanese and the cutscene doesn't show up in Mission Mode.

It's when he's explaining to the rest of the Organization what Xion is.

[Smile]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

Never claimed otherwise. His memories were leaking out in part because her memories of Kairi were replicated.

That is, there were two of the same memories of Kairi, the original in Sora and the replicas in Kairi. When Sora's memories started flowing out, they connected with Xion's replicated memories.

I find that rather difficult to believe, actually, mostly because of what went on in CoM. I doubt he managed to copy ALL of Sora's Memories of Kairi. And Xion didn't look like she did until Sora forgot Kairi. Namely, the Memories leaked out alright - but the originals, and the originals of Kairi.

Xemnas, Day 354.
Can't find a video of it right now other than the Japanese and the cutscene doesn't show up in Mission Mode.

It's when he's explaining to the rest of the Organization what Xion is.

:\ don't remember anything implying really in that direction.
Ah ok nm, saw it.
"To duplicate the Keyblade Wielder's Memories, and through them - his powers".
See? Good thing I quoted into my impressions while I was playing C:
I'll give you that there was a basis that was duplicated. No doubt what he sampled in the Unknown Fight in the first Final Mix. However, anything and everything besides that part all but bluntly shows that the original Memories leaked out. Including Memories of Kairi that tie in with how it went down in CoM, as well as Xion not looking the part until a while into CoM and the Memories leaked out. I'd hardly go as far as say she was MADE of Memories, in general, let alone of duplicated Memories of Kairi.
She was a Replica whose shape was dictated by the Memories - original Memories that leaked out going after what seems to be a rather tiny base.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by Smile

I find that rather difficult to believe, actually, mostly because of what went on in CoM. I doubt he managed to copy ALL of Sora's Memories of Kairi. And Xion didn't look like she did until Sora forgot Kairi. Namely, the Memories leaked out alright - but the originals, and the originals of Kairi.

I don't think the specifics here are that important- whether he copied all or some of the memories of Kairi is not important. Just that he did copy those memories.

Xion had from the very beginning a feminine figure which very obviously resembled Kairi, ie her memories played a part in Xion's creation.

Originally Posted by Smile

However, anything and everything besides that part all but bluntly shows that the original Memories leaked out. Including Memories of Kairi that tie in with how it went down in CoM, as well as Xion not looking the part until a while into CoM and the Memories leaked out.

Everything besides Xemnas, the one at the helm of the Replica Plan, points toward the original memories leaking out? No, I don't think so. And even if they did, I would kind of trust the word of the man behind her creation.

How it went down in CoM? You mean, Namine replacing Kairi, as the first important memory to go?
Because that's explained in game. Namine mixes around the memories, distorts them from being about Kairi to being about her. I think Namine would know if Kairi's memories were instead flowing out, yet this was not the case.

More importantly, proof that Sora retained his memories of Kairi is that, you know, he remembered her. Very end of the game. And her memory brought illumination to the rest of his forgotten friends.
It's not as though Sora forgot about Kairi after he fought Xemnas in Hollow Bastion.

I'm not even trying to argue here that the memories of Kairi didn't flow out at some point, actually. Just that the duplicate of memories of Kairi, and not the actual ones, are the core of Xion, what gave her existence.

Originally Posted by Smile

I'd hardly go as far as say she was MADE of Memories, in general, let alone of duplicated Memories of Kairi.
She was a Replica whose shape was dictated by the Memories - original Memories that leaked out going after what seems to be a rather tiny base.

I don't see how her being made of memories isn't a viable idea.

We have no clue how replicas are made. The form she takes is dependent on the seers connection to her memories, something akin to the memories in CO.

Could there be something more to her? Well, yeah, obviously.
But, Xion is the "Kairi that Sora remembers," ie memories (albeit duplicated) of Kairi.

[Smile]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

How it went down in CoM? You mean, Namine replacing Kairi, as the first important memory to go?
Because that's explained in game. Namine mixes around the memories, distorts them from being about Kairi to being about her. I think Namine would know if Kairi's memories were instead flowing out, yet this was not the case.

I doubt it. Why should she? The girl had been in existence for what, two weeks? I'm still wondering how she wasn't a zombie like Roxas and Xion.
She could've easily confused the Memories being delinked to them floating out, as there was no real reason for her to bother with them once she took them apart.
And Xion becoming a Kairi lookalike, let alone one that could use the Keyblade, while Sora was inside Castle Oblivion and CoM was still undergoing seems to point that the Memories were leaking out during. Arguably why Namine tried so hard to get Sora to believe in Kairi again - to rebase the girl in his Heart despite the Memories leaking.

More importantly, proof that Sora retained his memories of Kairi is that, you know, he remembered her. Very end of the game. And her memory brought illumination to the rest of his forgotten friends.
It's not as though Sora forgot about Kairi after he fought Xemnas in Hollow Bastion.

The Memory leakage was gradual, duh :\ and we agreed that those were the tiny bit of Memories he copied. He DID forget her the higher they went up Castle Oblivion.
And you yourself pointed out that Kairi's name escaped Sora in KH2, yet he said it clearly at the end of CoM - where I wouldn't be surprised if Namine was struggling to piece his Memories together, amongst other reasons to point his attention away from her.
Tidus, Selphie, Wakka, Leon, Aerith, Cid, Yuffie, and Riku were all Memories that existed in Sora's Heart, and those were the ones he seemed to be familiar with before ever turning his attention to Kairi.
Xion had her form by then. I doubt Sora'd have had much to remember her by if it wasn't for Namine.
There wasn't a Kairi in the DI Memory World. You could say it's because Namine slapped herself on Sora's Memories of Kairi, but
1) Namine doesn't act like Kairi, and existed to begin with as a separate entity in Sora's Heart. Her taking on Kairi's role in a literal sense would've created a contradiction inside the Memories, something Sora admitted to not having happened.
2) those were the Memories that weren't copied, but leaked. Hence the gradual transformation in Xion's appearance the Organization themselves attested to having occured. Namine wouldn't have had Memories of Kairi to base herself on - just the ones she herself had created.

I'm not even trying to argue here that the memories of Kairi didn't flow out, actually. Just that the duplicate of memories of Kairi, and not the actual ones, are the core of Xion, what gave her existence.

Neither of us are arguing about that. Just the extent of how much Xemnas took, which to me seems to not be enough. It wasn't until Sora forgot her completey in CoM that Xion seemed to have taken on Kairi's shape - something that going by Xemnas wasn't even supposed to happen, as "she" was supposed to have been "it".
Hm. Makes me wonder about the "she" part if everyone saw something else. Aqua? Lawl.

I don't see how her being made of memories isn't a viable idea.

Because there's a difference. She's a Replica, like Repliku. And there are hintings to her creation in the novels, before Xemnas met Sora. Even before Roxas was born. Vexen was toying around with it. They didn't bring the Memories until after Roxas was born - but by then it seems "Xion" was already in existence.

We have no clue how replicas are made. The form she takes is dependent on the seers connection to her memories, something akin to the memories in CO.

But much like how the Memories take form thanks to CO, the Memories took form thanks to Xion having a Puppet as a base.

Could there be something more to her? Well, yeah, obviously.
But, Xion is the "Kairi that Sora remembers," ie memories (albeit duplicated) of Kairi.

And false. At least as far as present day Kairi is concerned. Nomura himself all but said so XD;

[*TwilightNight*]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

Xion had from the very beginning a feminine figure which very obviously resembled Kairi, ie her memories played a part in Xion's creation.

Actually, that's more of aesthetics. When Xion is hooded, according to the scenario interview, that's when no one sees the "girl". Or probably nothing, really.

[Smile]

Originally Posted by *TwilightNight*

Actually, that's more of aesthetics. When Xion is hooded, according to the scenario interview, that's when no one sees the "girl". Or probably nothing, really.

Gotta agree with this. Even KH1 Kairi had breasts. Xion's as flat as a board from the start of the game to its end.
And arguably, that's because she's supposed to be a Replica of Sora's, not Kairi's. That's where the face came in more.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by Smile

I doubt it. Why should she? The girl had been in existence for what, two weeks? I'm still wondering how she wasn't a zombie like Roxas and Xion.
She could've easily confused the Memories being delinked to them floating out, as there was no real reason for her to bother with them once she took them apart.
And Xion becoming a Kairi lookalike, let alone one that could use the Keyblade, while Sora was inside Castle Oblivion and CoM was still undergoing seems to point that the Memories were leaking out during. Arguably why Namine tried so hard to get Sora to believe in Kairi again - to rebase the girl in his Heart despite the Memories leaking.

You can't actually be thinking that.
There isn't the remotest implication that Namine could have "confused" something like that.

If she can go and slip herself in, I'd consider her pretty skilled.
And being a "zombie" is irrelevant. Because she certainly wasn't at that stage of the game.

Originally Posted by Smile

The Memory leakage was gradual, duh :\ and we agreed that those were the tiny bit of Memories he copied. He DID forget her the higher they went up Castle Oblivion.

He forgot her because of what Namine did.
I'm a tad confused right now though.

You say that we agree those memories were copied. That's what I'm arguing here. If you think so too, then we're in agreement.

Because, again, I never said that the memories weren't pouring out either (just that, the replicated ones are used as the basis of her existence).

Originally Posted by Smile

And you yourself pointed out that Kairi's name escaped Sora in KH2, yet he said it clearly at the end of CoM - where I wouldn't be surprised if Namine was struggling to piece his Memories together, amongst other reasons to point his attention away from her.

When did I say Kairi's name escaped Sora in KH2?

Originally Posted by Smile

Tidus, Selphie, Wakka, Leon, Aerith, Cid, Yuffie, and Riku were all Memories that existed in Sora's Heart, and those were the ones he seemed to be familiar with before ever turning his attention to Kairi.

When he remembered Kairi, his "special person," the "light" in his memories, he started remembering his other friends too.

This was explained by Namine.

Originally Posted by Smile

1) Namine doesn't act like Kairi, and existed to begin with as a separate entity in Sora's Heart. Her taking on Kairi's role in a literal sense would've created a contradiction inside the Memories, something Sora admitted to not having happened.

Namine plants herself in Sora's memories and gradually weeds herself into the position of Kairi (using memories of Kairi). This is no contradiction.

The higher Sora went, the more his memories of Kairi were distorted.
Thus while he may have originally seen Namine as another girl, more and more she takes the place of Kairi.

Originally Posted by Smile

Neither of us are arguing about that. Just the extent of how much Xemnas took, which to me seems to not be enough. It wasn't until Sora forgot her completey in CoM that Xion seemed to have taken on Kairi's shape - something that going by Xemnas wasn't even supposed to happen, as "she" was supposed to have been "it".
Hm. Makes me wonder about the "she" part if everyone saw something else. Aqua? Lawl.

Xemnas didn't take anything. He just duplicated memories.

The "taking" came naturally when the memories started to flow out on their own.

Originally Posted by Smile

Because there's a difference. She's a Replica, like Repliku. And there are hintings to her creation in the novels, before Xemnas met Sora. Even before Roxas was born. Vexen was toying around with it. They didn't bring the Memories until after Roxas was born - but by then it seems "Xion" was already in existence.

But much like how the Memories take form thanks to CO, the Memories took form thanks to Xion having a Puppet as a base.

Sorry, I worded that poorly.
I didn't mean that memories were the only thing she's made of, but that she IS, primarily, made of memories.

WIthout them, just a puppet. With them, it's what gives her life, existence, replication.

Originally Posted by *TwilightNight*

Actually, that's more of aesthetics. When Xion is hooded, according to the scenario interview, that's when no one sees the "girl". Or probably nothing, really.

Yes, no one sees the "girl," they see an "it." An "it" with a feminine shape. You know, the thing that they show from the perspective of those who don't have a connection to Xion?

[*TwilightNight*]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

Yes, no one sees the "girl," they see an "it." An "it" with a feminine shape. You know, the thing that they show from the perspective of those who don't have a connection to Xion?

If she did really wear heels, and had a feminine figure to everyone, than it would have been more noticeable and people would have noticed. The "feminine shape" is more geared towards the audiences' point of view (which is why we never see what everyone else sees until otherwise. We always see the girl, remember?), not the actual characters in-game. Hooded Xion in the actual story equals no one to them, neither female, possibly neither male. There is no shape to decipher except a figure. That's the point.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by *TwilightNight*

If she did really wear heels, and had a feminine figure to everyone, than it would have been more noticeable and people would have noticed.

You mean like how everyone considered "it" a "she," even the ones who had no relation to Xion (see Xaldin, I'm sure there are other instances), except for the ones who knew better?

Originally Posted by *TwilightNight*

The "feminine shape" is more geared towards the audiences' point of view (which is why we never see what everyone else sees until otherwise. We always see the girl, remember?), not the actual characters in-game. Hooded Xion in the actual story equals no one to them, neither female, possibly neither male. There is no shape to decipher except a figure. That's the point.

No it's not, it's geared toward reality.
If her "true" puppet image was genderless, then they would have made it genderless. Plain and simple.
No where was it implied that hooded Xion isn't what they're actually seeing (those who aren't connected to her).

In fact, it's supposed to look like hooded Xion was from their point of view on various occasions.

[XYZ]

I guess no one remembers the word androgynous?