"The Man in Black Reflects"

[Grace Assassin]

So I'm guessing most of us probably had the same impression when we saw this scene.
Uh, why did they make this into a cutscene or include it at all? What a waste of space.

Yet the developers wouldn't have included it if it wasn't important.
So what makes this scene stand out?

Riku stretches out his hand, recaps of scenes in a later cutscene, he looks at his hand, and takes of his hood.
So what?

For a while I kinda disregarded this scene.
But watch it closely.
What's on Riku's mind?

Based on the images: Xion's keyblade. You know, the thing that he called a fake?
With that in mind, it sheds some light on the situation.

We know the Keyblade isn't fake. If it was, the Heartless wouldn't have released hearts and Xion would effectively be a failure as a replica.
When Riku is staring down at his palm, then, he is no doubt remembering how he held Xion's keyblade.

Having once held Sora's keyblade in that same hand, I think Riku must be a pretty good judge of the authenticity of a Keyblade. And that's what we see here. He reflects, in retrospect, that Xion's keyblade was real after all (and he was just in denial at the time of holding it).

But why is this important?
Because of the first few seconds of the cutscene.

What's he doing there? Oh, yes...


1:45. That. You know. Going through the motions of summoning a Keyblade.

Could that be what this scene is hinting at? Perhaps this has something to do with Riku being a chosen wielder (of the WtD)?

It reminds me of what was said in the novels- that summoning the Gayblade was like "remembering."
And here, Riku is remembering the Kingdom Key.... trying, at least, to remember what it was like to have that power.

It also seems like it may tie in with Riku's later connection to Oblivion- how he can remember Xion through it.

[Igshar]

What was funny is that when I watched it again in this thread, before reading anything, I was thinking the exact same thing. It really does look as though he was attempting to, at least, remember how to summon a Keyblade. That other scene with Yen Sid just made me giddy, because the motion is identical to the one Riku employed in his scene.

As you said, Xion's Keyblade had to be real, otherwise, again as you said, she'd have been a failure and been completely useless. To go along with that, how could Roxas have changed its form to the Oblivion later on and used them both simultaneously to defeat Heartless if one was a sham?

Keyblades and Memories have to be connected; this game only serves as more proof of that, that scene is one of the biggest proofs of it.

[Smile]

Nomura said often enough in the interviews and what not that Xion's Keyblade wasn't the real deal. She copied Sora's powers and it had the shape of the Keyblade but it wasn't, per-se, a true Keyblade.
Otherwise, why not just "take" her Keyblade when Roxas beat her, but instead, have her wake up another Keyblade inside him? (Ven factor ♥)

I do believe, however, Xion might be linked to Riku's Wielding. Both because of the whole issue that he "remembered" something that made the Gayblade appear - possibly relating to Xion's buried Memories inside of him when he saw Kairi finally (much like how connecting to Kairi through Roxas and Namine helped Sora recover Memories), how she called out to him when he held the Oblivion, and how he managed to downright change the Oblivion's appearance when he wielded it against Roxas in the final battle between them (which no doubt doesn't have the problem that Riku's gameplay in TWTNW had, being non-canon there).
Like I said before - I believe that his relation to the KK might be how she ended up with that weird Memory of his about Zexion x_X but time will tell. *head hurts*

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by Smile

Nomura said often enough in the interviews and what not that Xion's Keyblade wasn't the real deal. She copied Sora's powers and it had the shape of the Keyblade but it wasn't, per-se, a true Keyblade.

Pretty sure he never said this. :x

Originally Posted by Smile

I do believe, however, Xion might be linked to Riku's Wielding. Both because of the whole issue that he "remembered" something that made the Gayblade appear - possibly relating to Xion's buried Memories inside of him when he saw Kairi finally (much like how connecting to Kairi through Roxas and Namine helped Sora recover Memories), how she called out to him when he held the Oblivion, and how he managed to downright change the Oblivion's appearance when he wielded it against Roxas in the final battle between them (which no doubt doesn't have the problem that Riku's gameplay in TWTNW had, being non-canon there).
Like I said before - I believe that his relation to the KK might be how she ended up with that weird Memory of his about Zexion x_X but time will tell. *head hurts*

Well, off topic, but I have my own theory about the Gayblade.

Now, when Xion died, her memories went to Sora.
Naturally, when Repliku died, his memories must have gone to Riku.

After Xion died, Roxas gained the ability to wield a second keyblade.
And while it is some time after Repliku died (may have taken longer for any number of reasons), Riku gains the ability to dual wield as well.

The incriminating piece is the keychain of the Gayblade: Namine's good luck charm.

So perhaps Xion and her connection to Riku helped him wield again (WtD), and Repliku helped him dual wield (Gayblade)?

[ven-roxas21]

which one is the gayblade

[Smile]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

Pretty sure he never said this. :x

Implied enough in the Ultimania. Xion didn't have a real Keyblade, nor did Roxas get the one Xion was using. Xion merging with him awoke the second real Keyblade in him, no doubt via the Ven Factor.

Naturally, when Repliku died, his memories must have gone to Riku.

I find it ridiculous you say 'naturally' as it's all but baseless. Repliku was described to be a failure in compared to Xion in the secret reports. That's the reason Vexen even took him with him to Castle Oblivion, and continued his experiments there once he met Riku.
Repliku didn't gain his Memories from Riku himself. That was Namine's doing. She copied enough of Riku's Memories to give Repliku the same "feel" and then added herself in like she did for Sora. Repliku, unlike Xion, was based on Data. Why would his Memories go to Riku? There's nothing even remotely hinting to that. Sure him and Xion are parts of the same Replica Program but they imply often enough he has his share of differences from Xion.

After Xion died, Roxas gained the ability to wield a second keyblade.

Because Xion woke up that ability inside him once she merged with him, no doubt because she also is the part of Sora with the strongest "active" relation to Ven - as proved when Xigbar saw her as the kid.

And while it is some time after Repliku died (may have taken longer for any number of reasons), Riku gains the ability to dual wield as well.

I'd sooner blame Repliku's death on Riku wielding at all, not Duel Wielding. Vexen hadn't the Data of the Keyblade for Riku to implant into Repliku. Why would Repliku - again, who had no reason to give Riku his Memories in the first place - give him a second Keyblade, which would no doubt be a fake as well?

The incriminating piece is the keychain of the Gayblade: Namine's good luck charm.

Which is a Paopu. As much as I'd like to give Nami that much importance, SRK's regular hanging place seemed to have been the bent over Paopu tree. I'd sooner relate it to that before to Namine.

So perhaps Xion and her connection to Riku helped him wield again (WtD), and Repliku helped him dual wield (Gayblade)?

Highly doubtful, for the various reasons I presented. Especially seeing how he met Namine after he became able to Wield, but the Duel Wielding came from later interaction with Kairi. If Namine was to be the cause, I think it should've activated earlier.

Originally Posted by ven-roxas21

which one is the gayblade

The one Riku let Kairi use for a while in KH2.

[Kurix]

Hey, i'm new to KHinsiders. But I personally think that Riku was attempting to summon a keyblade, because notice how Xion didn't summon it back. It was a real keyblade, just made of memories. Riku thought maybe it did the same thing as when he took the keyblade from sora in Hollow Bastion.

[terra99032]

Originally Posted by Kurix

Hey, i'm new to KHinsiders. But I personally think that Riku was attempting to summon a keyblade, because notice how Xion didn't summon it back. It was a real keyblade, just made of memories. Riku thought maybe it did the same thing as when he took the keyblade from sora in Hollow Bastion.

He could of bin, its a possibility.That guy must really want a keyblade. i would of never thought of that, heck i wasn't thinking of anything when i was watching. i just dont have the abilitie to be able to pick things up like that, i have to watch things at least 3 to 4 times to actually get it fully. it would help if i could hear what they were saying caus this is the first time that i have seen this cutscene

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by Smile

Implied enough in the Ultimania. Xion didn't have a real Keyblade, nor did Roxas get the one Xion was using. Xion merging with him awoke the second real Keyblade in him, no doubt via the Ven Factor.

I fail to see where it is implied- at all.
Nor do I see how anyone would guess that Xion's keyblade is fake.

It releases hearts from Heartless.
So, uh, if it's fake and can do that, what's the difference between a fake and a real, and would it even matter?

Originally Posted by Smile

I find it ridiculous you say 'naturally' as it's all but baseless. Repliku was described to be a failure in compared to Xion in the secret reports. That's the reason Vexen even took him with him to Castle Oblivion, and continued his experiments there once he met Riku.

How is it baseless? It's based in exactly what I just said: Xion's memories became a part of Sora.
That is, a replica died and merged with the original.

I applied it to Repliku because, well, you know, he IS a replica.
Vexen regarding Repliku as a "failure" has absolutely nothing to do with it. He's a failure in some way, therefore his memories would be prevented from merging with Riku?

Originally Posted by Smile

Repliku didn't gain his Memories from Riku himself. That was Namine's doing. She copied enough of Riku's Memories to give Repliku the same "feel" and then added herself in like she did for Sora. Repliku, unlike Xion, was based on Data. Why would his Memories go to Riku? There's nothing even remotely hinting to that. Sure him and Xion are parts of the same Replica Program but they imply often enough he has his share of differences from Xion.

You don't know that.

In fact, what you said about Namine strengthens my argument.
Xion absorbed memories from Sora because she was originally made from replicated memories (of Kairi).

And, oh look, Namine copied Riku's memories. Hmmm.

But, wait! If that means Riku's memories were flowing into Repliku, how come Riku wasn't forgetful!
Actually, he was.

The much of the light memories in his heart were gone.

Also, you're getting ahead of yourself when you say that Repliku was based on data, whereas Xion was not.
I assume you're referring to the scene where Vexen talks about Riku giving him invaluable data. But your reasoning is faulty.

- First and foremost, Repliku was made before Vexen even had contact with Riku. We know this from the Secret Reports. Thus, we don't actually know how he was made.
- Second, you're dismissing the possibility of data being memories. Who's to say that when he was "collecting data" he wasn't collecting memories? "Data" is a vague and arbitrary term here.
- And last, even if "data" is something other than memories, you could not say whether or not Xion had "data" within her as well. We just don't know.

Logic would dictate that since they're the same kind of beings, Xion and Repliku were made through the same means.

Originally Posted by Smile

Because Xion woke up that ability inside him once she merged with him, no doubt because she also is the part of Sora with the strongest "active" relation to Ven - as proved when Xigbar saw her as the kid.

Your point?

Originally Posted by Smile

I'd sooner blame Repliku's death on Riku wielding at all, not Duel Wielding. Vexen hadn't the Data of the Keyblade for Riku to implant into Repliku. Why would Repliku - again, who had no reason to give Riku his Memories in the first place - give him a second Keyblade, which would no doubt be a fake as well?

Because if Riku had the potential within him to wield a Keyblade, Repliku would too (kindly disregarding your "fake" comment). This may explain why the whole process took so long- because the potential was there, but needed to be activated.

Originally Posted by Smile

Which is a Paopu. As much as I'd like to give Nami that much importance, SRK's regular hanging place seemed to have been the bent over Paopu tree. I'd sooner relate it to that before to Namine.

It doesn't give Namine importance. It gives Repliku importance.
If I were right about all of this, at best, Namine would be mentioned passingly.

Originally Posted by Smile

Especially seeing how he met Namine after he became able to Wield,

No?
Unless you're talking about how he used to wield the KK.

Originally Posted by Smile

but the Duel Wielding came from later interaction with Kairi.

We don't know when he was able to wield the WtD, much less the Gayblade.

Saying it came from the interaction with Kairi is certainly pretentious.

[Smile]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

I fail to see where it is implied- at all.
Nor do I see how anyone would guess that Xion's keyblade is fake.

It releases hearts from Heartless.
So, uh, if it's fake and can do that, what's the difference between a fake and a real, and would it even matter?

She copied Roxas's powers. The ability to release Hearts. If it's a copied Keyblade it's not a real Keyblade.

I applied it to Repliku because, well, you know, he IS a replica.
Vexen regarding Repliku as a "failure" has absolutely nothing to do with it. He's a failure in some way, therefore his memories would be prevented from merging with Riku?

What reason would it have? Xion was based on Memories, but nothing ever implied that for Riku?

You don't know that.

In fact, what you said about Namine strengthens my argument.
Xion absorbed memories from Sora because she was originally made from replicated memories (of Kairi).

And, oh look, Namine copied Riku's memories. Hmmm.

That's right. COPIED. Xion STOLE.

The much of the light memories in his heart were gone.

Before Repliku ever came into existence. So I guess he must've permanently lost some Memories :\ and I still say it's rather possible the reason that happened was that the Memories were based on Sora's Memory cards and not quite Riku's own. So why would Riku have Memories in there? And no, Zexion saying the same thing doesn't cound. He could've easily been pulling Riku's leg.

Also, you're getting ahead of yourself when you say that Repliku was based on data, whereas Xion was not.
I assume you're referring to the scene where Vexen talks about Riku giving him invaluable data. But your reasoning is faulty.

Logic would dictate that since they're the same kind of beings, Xion and Repliku were made through the same means.

But ended up with different results.

Your point?

That Xion had not a Keyblade to give Roxas :\ otherwise why not just take her own?

No?
Unless you're talking about how he used to wield the KK.

I'm talking about the WtD.

We don't know when he was able to wield the WtD, much less the Gayblade.

Saying it came from the interaction with Kairi is certainly pretentious.

No, that's one detail I think was confirmed Nomura put into the novels, making it undoubtful canon despite the novels' canon issue. Meeting Kairi made a long lost Memory awaken inside him and that's when the Gayblade popped into existence.

EDIT:

There we go.

Originally Posted by Ultimania

So that’s why he lost to Roxas, he was surprised at him using a real keyblade rather than an imitation like Xion's

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by Smile

She copied Roxas's powers. The ability to release Hearts. If it's a copied Keyblade it's not a real Keyblade.

I don't understand the logic behind this.

If it's a copied Keyblade, that doesn't mean it's fake.
You should be careful when treading around synonyms They can mean the same thing, but they don't have to be. Such is the case here with the words "imitation" and "fake."

A fake Keyblade would not have the power of the real Keyblade, I think even you can admit as much. Because if it's "fake" and it looks, acts, and essentially is the same thing as the original keyblade, then the word "fake" is only nominal and there is no difference.

And we know Xion's keyblade had all of the powers of any other keyblade. In fact, she also had the power to wield Roxas' keyblade.

It's an imitation. You could argue that, when dual wielding, the second keyblade is a copy of the first. The keyblade splits into two, and one is an imitation of the other. Doesn't make it fake.

Originally Posted by Smile

What reason would it have? Xion was based on Memories, but nothing ever implied that for Riku?

What?

Originally Posted by Smile

That's right. COPIED. Xion STOLE.

No, no, no.
They both copied.

Xion had copied memories of Kairi.
Repliku had copied memories of DI.

Because of the copied memories, Xion began to absorb (steal) Sora's other memories.
And I merely applied this to Repliku.

Originally Posted by Smile

Before Repliku ever came into existence. So I guess he must've permanently lost some Memories :\ and I still say it's rather possible the reason that happened was that the Memories were based on Sora's Memory cards and not quite Riku's own. So why would Riku have Memories in there?

Before Repliku ever came into existence?
Did you ignore what I said?

We don't know when Repliku came into existence, but it was well before Riku made it to CO.

Originally Posted by Smile

And no, Zexion saying the same thing doesn't cound. He could've easily been pulling Riku's leg.

I realize that he could have been pulling Riku's leg, I'm not claiming that I know for a fact that Riku lost memories.

I'm using evidence in, shock, a theory.

Originally Posted by Smile

Also, you're getting ahead of yourself when you say that Repliku was based on data, whereas Xion was not.
I assume you're referring to the scene where Vexen talks about Riku giving him invaluable data. But your reasoning is faulty.

Copypasta?

Originally Posted by Smile

But ended up with different results.

What do you mean by "results"?

Originally Posted by Smile

That Xion had not a Keyblade to give Roxas :\ otherwise why not just take her own?

Because it's not about being so material.

"Oh, I have a keyblade that came from yours, when I die, you can have mine."

She had the ability to wield, he had the ability to wield. When she became one with Sora, she relinquished her ability to wield and activated it within Roxas.

Originally Posted by Smile

I'm talking about the WtD.

Then no.

Either that or I don't understand what you're saying here and why you're saying it.
Riku met Namine well before he was able to wield the WtD.

Originally Posted by Smile

No, that's one detail I think was confirmed Nomura put into the novels, making it undoubtful canon despite the novels' canon issue. Meeting Kairi made a long lost Memory awaken inside him and that's when the Gayblade popped into existence.

Despite the novel's canonity at issue, you can go ahead and deem that canon?
Yeah, ok.

The fact that he left it out of the games and has made the concept of the Gayblade a mystery waiting to be solved kinda goes against that point.

Also, mind showing me where it was said that he gained the ability specifically at the time he met Kairi? Don't recall reading that.

Originally Posted by Smile

There we go.

See first response.