Son of God

Einon SAMA · 01/16/08, 05:31 AM

I have this question thats always bugged me about some members of "christianity".

Why do you believe Jesus to be God? Please give me you best reasons for believing so. Reasonably... those reasons should be from the Bible itself.

Here are just a few reasons for why I disagree with that belief.
1.Jesus NEVER claimed to be God, but his son. (a seperate entity from the father)
2.Jesus glorified his Father's name as he performed miracles and not himself.
3.Jesus says that the Father is greater than he, and that he was going to be sitting at God's right hand.(If he is at "GOD's" right hand, then it doesn't make sense to me that he is God himself.
4.As he was being tortured, he screamed towards the heavens, asking GOD why he has turned his back to him.

These are just a few, but I would like your views on the matter, IF you have something to say about it. Ciao!

HadesDragon · 01/16/08, 06:08 AM

I'm an atheist, but I'd think of them separately, like you.

Einon SAMA · 01/16/08, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HadesDragon

I'm an atheist, but I'd think of them separately, like you.

I see. Well, do you agree with me for just about the same reasons I have that belief, I hope.

**blinkboy211** · 01/16/08, 08:13 AM

Quote:

4.As he was being tortured, he screamed towards the heavens, asking GOD why he has turned his back to him.

Never heard of that one or i havent remembered that part. But he is not considered God but part of him. Jesus was to assend into Heavens to open the gates to the people of puritory. Jesus is God but not. I guess what you can say is he was suppose to be a piece of God and since that piece came from God then you have a son that has partial power of the father. Thats really the best i can offer i guess.

Hollow Bastion · 01/16/08, 04:23 PM

The Trinity is one of the things I have against Christianity. Never could understand it really. Just seemed like polytheism hiding under the cloak of monotheism. "lol hay, I'm God's son and actually God himself. So, be sure you worship me as well!"

Of course, you could try the whole metaphorical part of "son" and say that all humans are "sons" and "daughters" of God. But that's a separate topic.

Einon SAMA · 01/16/08, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Jesus is God but not. I guess what you can say is he was suppose to be a piece of God and since that piece came from God then you have a son that has partial power of the father. Thats really the best i can offer i guess.

Okay. So Jesus is a piece from God? Even in your quote there are 2 people. 2 persons with 2 different wills. One of them is but a servant of the other. As you know, Satan himself tempted Jesus, asking him to do an act of worship to Satan. Really, what would be the point if Jesus was God? Or even a part of God? Jesus replied that, "...to God alone you must worship."

Fatal_Blade · 01/16/08, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blinkboy211

Never heard of that one or i havent remembered that part. But he is not considered God but part of him. Jesus was to assend into Heavens to open the gates to the people of puritory. Jesus is God but not. I guess what you can say is he was suppose to be a piece of God and since that piece came from God then you have a son that has partial power of the father. Thats really the best i can offer i guess.

Its kind of like Jesus is God in the flesh.

Ryu · 01/16/08, 08:36 PM

Einon listed a series of arguments that I liked to use as well when debating the Trinity. The Bible is more than clear on this matter, and anything even resembling a Trinity was never even mentioned in the Bible.

Saying that Jesus is a piece of God and therefore is God makes no sense. Since God is the creator of all life, you could deduct from that the idea that everyone and everything is a "part" of him. But that does not make me God or even remotely equal to God. Saying that Jesus is a piece of God and therefore is God (in the metaphorical context especially) would make as much sense as me claiming to be my father because I am created from his genes.

**blinkboy211** · 01/16/08, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatal_Blade

Its kind of like Jesus is God in the flesh.

This is the best thing i heard so far.

Quote:

Okay. So Jesus is a piece from God? Even in your quote there are 2 people. 2 persons with 2 different wills. One of them is but a servant of the other. As you know, Satan himself tempted Jesus, asking him to do an act of worship to Satan. Really, what would be the point if Jesus was God? Or even a part of God? Jesus replied that, "...to God alone you must worship."

Jesus was a part of God so he is god but just humana version i guess you can say. But Jesus always acted as just the son when really he is just a living God. Jesus doesnt have the memories of God which makes him like human. God gave part of himself to the world to spread good for those he seek him. But God couldnt open the door of heaven from the inside and needed a piece of him to die and rise to heaven to open it. Thus the reason he place Jesus inside Mary.

Valley of Chrome · 01/16/08, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Why do you believe Jesus to be God? Please give me you best reasons for believing so.

Quote:

Reasonably... those reasons should be from the Bible itself.

Jesus is not a God but the Son, just like you said.
Also, i'm a christian.

1.Jesus NEVER claimed to be God, but his son. (a seperate entity from the father)
2.Jesus glorified his Father's name as he performed miracles and not himself.
3.Jesus says that the Father is greater than he, and that he was going to be sitting at God's right hand.(If he is at "GOD's" right hand, then it doesn't make sense to me that he is God himself.

All of this is true.

Quote:

4.As he was being tortured, he screamed towards the heavens, asking GOD why he has turned his back to him.

Is this about Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane?

Quote:

The Trinity is one of the things I have against Christianity. Never could understand it really. Just seemed like polytheism hiding under the cloak of monotheism. "lol hay, I'm God's son and actually God himself. So, be sure you worship me as well!"

Here's my opinion on the Trinity.

God, Jesus and the Holy spirit as the Trinity says, is one.
I believe that they are one because they have one purpose.
And that purpose is the salvation of mankind.

Ryu · 01/16/08, 09:29 PM

They are one because they have the same purpose? That being your sole reason for believing in the Trinity?

God did not create mankind with the intention of messing them up and then saving them. Jesus was not created with the intention of saving mankind. Sure enough, he was sent to earth for that purpose, and then he "died for our sins". That means his purpose was fulfilled, as well as God's. Which would mean Jesus or God has no purpose right now. And the Holy Spirit isn't even spoken of as an entity, like God or Jesus.

Doesn't really shed any light on Einon's question.

Einon SAMA · 01/17/08, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Is this about Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane?

Quote:

Never heard of that one or i havent remembered that part.

Matthew 27:46 27:46 At about three o’clock Jesus shouted with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

This also shows that they are two DIFFERENT people. It is Jesus' God along with ours.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father...I am ascending to MY Father and your Father and to MY God (someone you worship other than yourself) AND your God.

Also, I'd like to meantion that I'm amazed at the fact of those who claim to be Christians, but have different views to who and what Christ really is. That means someone is wrong. And honestly, I'd say that any nonbiased person to pick up the bible would most definately not agree with the trinity belief.

iholdthekeys · 01/17/08, 02:57 AM

The One True God

The one true God has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent "I AM," the Creator of heaven and earth and the Redeemer of mankind. He has further revealed Himself as embodying the principles of relationship and association as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

*
Deuteronomy 6:4 [KJV/NIV]
*
Isaiah 43:10,11 [KJV/NIV]
*
Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV]
*
Luke 3:22 [KJV/NIV]

The Adorable Godhead

a. Terms Defined
The terms "Trinity" and "persons" as related to the Godhead, while not found in the Scriptures, are words in harmony with Scripture, whereby we may convey to others our immediate understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as distinguished from "gods many and lords many." We therefore may speak with propriety of the Lord our God who is One Lord, as a trinity or as one Being of three persons, and still be absolutely scriptural.

* Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV]
* 2 Corinthians 13:14 [KJV/NIV]
* John 14:16-17 [KJV/NIV]

b. Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead
Christ taught a distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that this distinction and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained.

o Luke 1:35 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 Corinthians 1:24 [KJV/NIV]
o Matthew 11:25-27 [KJV/NIV]
o Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV]
o 2 Corinthians 13:14 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 1:3-4 [KJV/NIV])

c. Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Accordingly, therefore, there is that in the Father which constitutes him the Father and not the Son; there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not the Father; and there is that in the Holy Spirit which constitutes Him the Holy Spirit and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one.

o John 1:18 [KJV/NIV]
o John 15:26 [KJV/NIV]
o John 17:11 [KJV/NIV]
o John 17:21 [KJV/NIV]
o Zechariah 14:9 [KJV/NIV]

d. Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence, neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the others.

o John 5:17-30 [KJV/NIV]
o John 5:32 [KJV/NIV]
o John 5:37 [KJV/NIV]
o John 8:17,18 [KJV/NIV]

e. The Title, Lord Jesus Christ
The appellation, "Lord Jesus Christ," is a proper name. It is never applied in the New Testament, either to the Father or to the Holy Spirit. It therefore belongs exclusively to the Son of God.

* Romans 1:1-3 [KJV/NIV]
* 2 John 1:3 [KJV/NIV

f. The Lord Jesus Christ, God with Us
The Lord Jesus Christ, as to His divine and eternal nature, is the proper and only Begotten of the Father, but as to His human nature, He is the proper Son of Man. He is therefore, acknowledged to be both God and man; who because He is God and man is "Immanuel," God with us.

o Matthew 1:23 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 4:2 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 4:10 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 4:14 [KJV/NIV]
o Revelation 1:13 [KJV/NIV]
o Revelation 1:17 [KJV/NIV]

g. The Title, Son of God
Since the name "Immanuel" embraces both God and man in the one Person, our Lord Jesus Christ, it follows that the title, Son of God, describes His proper deity, and the title, Son of Man, His proper humanity. Therefore, the title Son of God, belongs to the order of eternity, and the title, Son of Man, to the order of time.

o Matthew 1:21-23 [KJV/NIV]
o 2 John 1:3 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 3:8 [KJV/NIV]
o Hebrews 7:3 [KJV/NIV]
o Hebrews 1:1-13 [KJV/NIV]

h. Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ
Wherefore, it is a transgression of the Doctrine of Christ to say that Jesus Christ derived the title, Son of God, solely from the fact of the incarnation, or because of His relation to the economy of redemption. Therefore, to deny that the Father is a real and eternal Father, and that the Son is a real and eternal Son, is a denial of the distinction and relationship in the Being of God; a denial of the Father, and the Son; and a displacement of the truth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

o 2 John 1:9 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:1 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:2 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:14 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:18 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:29 [KJV/NIV]
o John 1:49 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 2:22,23 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 John 4:1-5 [KJV/NIV]
o Hebrews 12:2 [KJV/NIV]

i. Exaltation of Jesus Christ as Lord
The Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, having by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; angels and principalities and powers having been made subject unto Him. And having been made both Lord and Christ, He sent the Holy Spirit that we, in the name of Jesus, might bow our knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father until the end, when the Son shall become subject to the Father that God may be all in all.

o Hebrews 1:3 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 Peter 3:22 [KJV/NIV]
o Acts 2:32-36 [KJV/NIV]
o Romans 14:11 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 [KJV/NIV]

j. Equal Honor to the Father and to the Son
Wherefore, since the Father has delivered all judgment unto the Son, it is not only the express duty of all in heaven and on earth to bow the knee, but it is an unspeakable joy in the Holy Spirit to ascribe unto the Son all the attributes of Deity, and to give Him all honor and the glory contained in all the names and titles of the Godhead except those which express relationship (see Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead, Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit , and Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead) and thus honor the Son even as we honor the Father.

o John 5:22,23 [KJV/NIV]
o 1 Peter 1:8 [KJV/NIV]
o Revelation 5:6-14 [KJV/NIV]
o Philippians 2:8,9 [KJV/NIV]
o Revelation 7:9-10 [KJV/NIV]
o Revelation 4:8-11 [KJV/NIV]

srry i didn't put in the actual verses, there's kind of alot

Ryu · 01/17/08, 05:03 PM

tl;dr

And instead of disproving Einon's quoted verses, you copied and pasted one or two pages of bullshit off a Googled site. I'm not even going to bother.

~~Miss Murder~~ · 01/17/08, 05:07 PM

I had the same question a few years ago.

When I attended Church, I asked the pastor the very same question.

He basically said that the Trinity was like an egg. o.O
You have the white, the shell, and the yolk. Three different things, but all of the same entity.
Eh.

Not very helpful, is it.

01/16/08, 05:31 AM	#1
Einon SAMA Pillow Talk Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Celestial Plain Posts: 1,282 Rep Power: 5	Son of God I have this question thats always bugged me about some members of "christianity". Why do you believe Jesus to be God? Please give me you best reasons for believing so. Reasonably... those reasons should be from the Bible itself. Here are just a few reasons for why I disagree with that belief. 1.Jesus NEVER claimed to be God, but his son. (a seperate entity from the father) 2.Jesus glorified his Father's name as he performed miracles and not himself. 3.Jesus says that the Father is greater than he, and that he was going to be sitting at God's right hand.(If he is at "GOD's" right hand, then it doesn't make sense to me that he is God himself. 4.As he was being tortured, he screamed towards the heavens, asking GOD why he has turned his back to him. These are just a few, but I would like your views on the matter, IF you have something to say about it. Ciao!

01/16/08, 06:08 AM	#2
HadesDragon Apathy Join Date: May 2007 Location: Plotting. Posts: 5,945 Rep Power: 10	Re: Son of God I'm an atheist, but I'd think of them separately, like you.

01/16/08, 04:23 PM	#5
Hollow Bastion Crimson Join Date: May 2004 Location: Side 3 Age: 21 Posts: 2,058 Rep Power: 7	Re: Son of God The Trinity is one of the things I have against Christianity. Never could understand it really. Just seemed like polytheism hiding under the cloak of monotheism. "lol hay, I'm God's son and actually God himself. So, be sure you worship me as well!" Of course, you could try the whole metaphorical part of "son" and say that all humans are "sons" and "daughters" of God. But that's a separate topic.

01/16/08, 08:36 PM	#8
Ryu an obscene gesture Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Here. Age: 21 Posts: 3,422 Rep Power: 9	Re: Son of God Einon listed a series of arguments that I liked to use as well when debating the Trinity. The Bible is more than clear on this matter, and anything even resembling a Trinity was never even mentioned in the Bible. Saying that Jesus is a piece of God and therefore is God makes no sense. Since God is the creator of all life, you could deduct from that the idea that everyone and everything is a "part" of him. But that does not make me God or even remotely equal to God. Saying that Jesus is a piece of God and therefore is God (in the metaphorical context especially) would make as much sense as me claiming to be my father because I am created from his genes.

01/16/08, 09:29 PM	#11
Ryu an obscene gesture Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Here. Age: 21 Posts: 3,422 Rep Power: 9	Re: Son of God They are one because they have the same purpose? That being your sole reason for believing in the Trinity? God did not create mankind with the intention of messing them up and then saving them. Jesus was not created with the intention of saving mankind. Sure enough, he was sent to earth for that purpose, and then he "died for our sins". That means his purpose was fulfilled, as well as God's. Which would mean Jesus or God has no purpose right now. And the Holy Spirit isn't even spoken of as an entity, like God or Jesus. Doesn't really shed any light on Einon's question.

01/17/08, 02:57 AM	#13
iholdthekeys Ruler of Light Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 652 Rep Power: 0	Re: Son of God The One True God The one true God has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent "I AM," the Creator of heaven and earth and the Redeemer of mankind. He has further revealed Himself as embodying the principles of relationship and association as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. * Deuteronomy 6:4 [KJV/NIV] * Isaiah 43:10,11 [KJV/NIV] * Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV] * Luke 3:22 [KJV/NIV] The Adorable Godhead a. Terms Defined The terms "Trinity" and "persons" as related to the Godhead, while not found in the Scriptures, are words in harmony with Scripture, whereby we may convey to others our immediate understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as distinguished from "gods many and lords many." We therefore may speak with propriety of the Lord our God who is One Lord, as a trinity or as one Being of three persons, and still be absolutely scriptural. * Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV] * 2 Corinthians 13:14 [KJV/NIV] * John 14:16-17 [KJV/NIV] b. Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead Christ taught a distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that this distinction and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained. o Luke 1:35 [KJV/NIV] o 1 Corinthians 1:24 [KJV/NIV] o Matthew 11:25-27 [KJV/NIV] o Matthew 28:19 [KJV/NIV] o 2 Corinthians 13:14 [KJV/NIV] o 1 John 1:3-4 [KJV/NIV]) c. Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit Accordingly, therefore, there is that in the Father which constitutes him the Father and not the Son; there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not the Father; and there is that in the Holy Spirit which constitutes Him the Holy Spirit and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one. o John 1:18 [KJV/NIV] o John 15:26 [KJV/NIV] o John 17:11 [KJV/NIV] o John 17:21 [KJV/NIV] o Zechariah 14:9 [KJV/NIV] d. Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence, neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the others. o John 5:17-30 [KJV/NIV] o John 5:32 [KJV/NIV] o John 5:37 [KJV/NIV] o John 8:17,18 [KJV/NIV] e. The Title, Lord Jesus Christ The appellation, "Lord Jesus Christ," is a proper name. It is never applied in the New Testament, either to the Father or to the Holy Spirit. It therefore belongs exclusively to the Son of God. * Romans 1:1-3 [KJV/NIV] * 2 John 1:3 [KJV/NIV f. The Lord Jesus Christ, God with Us The Lord Jesus Christ, as to His divine and eternal nature, is the proper and only Begotten of the Father, but as to His human nature, He is the proper Son of Man. He is therefore, acknowledged to be both God and man; who because He is God and man is "Immanuel," God with us. o Matthew 1:23 [KJV/NIV] o 1 John 4:2 [KJV/NIV] o 1 John 4:10 [KJV/NIV] o 1 John 4:14 [KJV/NIV] o Revelation 1:13 [KJV/NIV] o Revelation 1:17 [KJV/NIV] g. The Title, Son of God Since the name "Immanuel" embraces both God and man in the one Person, our Lord Jesus Christ, it follows that the title, Son of God, describes His proper deity, and the title, Son of Man, His proper humanity. Therefore, the title Son of God, belongs to the order of eternity, and the title, Son of Man, to the order of time. o Matthew 1:21-23 [KJV/NIV] o 2 John 1:3 [KJV/NIV] o 1 John 3:8 [KJV/NIV] o Hebrews 7:3 [KJV/NIV] o Hebrews 1:1-13 [KJV/NIV] h. Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ Wherefore, it is a transgression of the Doctrine of Christ to say that Jesus Christ derived the title, Son of God, solely from the fact of the incarnation, or because of His relation to the economy of redemption. Therefore, to deny that the Father is a real and eternal Father, and that the Son is a real and eternal Son, is a denial of the distinction and relationship in the Being of God; a denial of the Father, and the Son; and a displacement of the truth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. o 2 John 1:9 [KJV/NIV] o John 1:1 [KJV/NIV] o John 1:2 [KJV/NIV] o John 1:14 [KJV/NIV] o John 1:18 [KJV/NIV] o John 1:29 [KJV/NIV] o John 1:49 [KJV/NIV] o 1 John 2:22,23 [KJV/NIV] o 1 John 4:1-5 [KJV/NIV] o Hebrews 12:2 [KJV/NIV] i. Exaltation of Jesus Christ as Lord The Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, having by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; angels and principalities and powers having been made subject unto Him. And having been made both Lord and Christ, He sent the Holy Spirit that we, in the name of Jesus, might bow our knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father until the end, when the Son shall become subject to the Father that God may be all in all. o Hebrews 1:3 [KJV/NIV] o 1 Peter 3:22 [KJV/NIV] o Acts 2:32-36 [KJV/NIV] o Romans 14:11 [KJV/NIV] o 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 [KJV/NIV] j. Equal Honor to the Father and to the Son Wherefore, since the Father has delivered all judgment unto the Son, it is not only the express duty of all in heaven and on earth to bow the knee, but it is an unspeakable joy in the Holy Spirit to ascribe unto the Son all the attributes of Deity, and to give Him all honor and the glory contained in all the names and titles of the Godhead except those which express relationship (see Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead, Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit , and Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead) and thus honor the Son even as we honor the Father. o John 5:22,23 [KJV/NIV] o 1 Peter 1:8 [KJV/NIV] o Revelation 5:6-14 [KJV/NIV] o Philippians 2:8,9 [KJV/NIV] o Revelation 7:9-10 [KJV/NIV] o Revelation 4:8-11 [KJV/NIV] srry i didn't put in the actual verses, there's kind of alot

01/17/08, 05:03 PM	#14
Ryu an obscene gesture Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Here. Age: 21 Posts: 3,422 Rep Power: 9	Re: Son of God tl;dr And instead of disproving Einon's quoted verses, you copied and pasted one or two pages of bullshit off a Googled site. I'm not even going to bother.

01/17/08, 05:07 PM	#15
~~Miss Murder~~ Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Climbing Up the Walls Age: 16 Posts: 3,399 Rep Power: 0	Re: Son of God I had the same question a few years ago. When I attended Church, I asked the pastor the very same question. He basically said that the Trinity was like an egg. o.O You have the white, the shell, and the yolk. Three different things, but all of the same entity. Eh. Not very helpful, is it.

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