Predestination anyone?

[ozymandius]

Anyone have any thoughts on predestination?

In my opinion, predestination rebukes the whole free will bit, but I want to know what you think.

[Duality]

Predetermination is the word you are looking for I believe. In any case, if one does not know the future, (even if another such as God does), then free will still exists. Free will exists so long as we, ourselves, are unaware of the future.

[Jopari]

Originally Posted by Duality

Free will exists so long as we, ourselves, are unaware of the future.

I don't think so. Because even if we know the future it has already been determined for us. This means that we have no say in what happens. It would make free will an illusion, which once again makes the Problem of Evil moot.

[Duality]

I don't really know how to explain this without going around in circles with you Jopari.... ummmm...

If we do not know our own fate, predetermination cannot exist for us. We must decide what our fate is. Of course, these were the decisions we were intended to make. God intended them, obviously. However, I believe the core of what we are in disagreement is the definition of free will.

I will try to think about a clearer response, but perhaps, in the meantime, could you put forth a definition and with valid reasons for the definition. Even that is difficult to do. But we must start somewhere.

[Jopari]

True, we will probably end up going in circles. The definition of free will is:

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

free will
-noun
1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2. Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Therefore, by that definition, if your choices are set in motion by God, even without your knowledge, they are not free will.

EDIT: I forgot to give a reason for the definition. Free will cannot be undertaken without having a total freedom to move along the board. A pawn doesn't have free will in chess. They can move, but they can only move in a way that is predetermined by the game's rules.

[Dr. Freeman]

Originally Posted by Duality

Predetermination is the word you are looking for I believe. In any case, if one does not know the future, (even if another such as God does), then free will still exists. Free will exists so long as we, ourselves, are unaware of the future.

If God knows the future, predestination exists. Reason being, free will is when we have the choice to do what we want. If God knows, then we have already made the choice, and therefore, are destined to do certain things. We would then only have the illusion of free will, because we are unaware of our destiny.

[ozymandius]

Originally Posted by Duality

Predetermination is the word you are looking for I believe. In any case, if one does not know the future, (even if another such as God does), then free will still exists. Free will exists so long as we, ourselves, are unaware of the future.

1. Pick you poison. I choose Predestination.

2. That contradicts the entire idea of predestination.

[Phoenix]

Simple question:

"If God knows you will kill your father tomorrow, is there any possible way you can choose something else?"

[ozymandius]

I think that if that were to happen, your father would die no matter what. It wouldn't matter what you'd do.

[Einon SAMA]

Cant it be that God determines events to happen and not the actions of everyone? Just an idea. From a Christian's standpoint and imo, total predestination destroys our beliefs. But I'd say that prophecies would most definatley be a form of predestination/predetermination, no? As for what you decide to wear tomorrow, God may know it, but it doesn't mean he decides it.

[Phoenix]

Yet that doesn't mean you can change it. Free will is based on the idea that you can always choose something else. If God sees you doing something, and no matter what's what, you cannot choose something else, there is only the illusion of free will.

[ozymandius]

That was my point. It doesn't matter if you choose not to see your father for the entire week, he will still die. The reason he'd die is because you didn't have anything to do with it.

[Einon SAMA]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Yet that doesn't mean you can change it. Free will is based on the idea that you can always choose something else. If God sees you doing something, and no matter what's what, you cannot choose something else, there is only the illusion of free will.

I don't see it that way. Its like someone who can see the future (hypothetically speaking). They don't choose what happens, but can see it. Its not that hard to differenciate. A poor example, the Force allows a jedi to see glimpses into the future and what not, but it isn't them who changes it, nor is it the Force's will for whatever they see to happen. It is simply what happens. It could be changed, but (back to God) God knows if it will be changed or not. ... Does that make any sense?

Again, back to the prophecies of old. Thats when God determined something. If all things are predestined, then prophecies wouldn't be that big o deal.

That was my point. It doesn't matter if you choose not to see your father for the entire week, he will still die. The reason he'd die is because you didn't have anything to do with it.

Thats an interesting view, but there isn't a way to prove that. It just seems like you've watched the movie De Ja Vu too many times. =P
jk jk

[Phoenix]

I don't see it that way. Its like someone who can see the future (hypothetically speaking). They don't choose what happens, but can see it. Its not that hard to differenciate.

Could they change that future? It's a simple enough question. Do they have the choice to change that?

A poor example, the Force allows a jedi to see glimpses into the future and what not, but it isn't them who changes it, nor is it the Force's will for whatever they see to happen. It is simply what happens. It could be changed, but (back to God) God knows if it will be changed or not. ... Does that make any sense?

In so far until you mentioned God. When you said it could be changed, free will remained, but when you put God into the equation, you made it unchangeable, thus, you voided free will.

Again, back to the prophecies of old. Thats when God determined something. If all things are predestined, then prophecies wouldn't be that big o deal.

God's prophecies are simply his sharing of information with his servants. It's a big deal because it's the only time he chooses to share his knowledge with the humans, no? It's nothing special; it voids free will in the same way his omniscience does.

[Einon SAMA]

Could they change that future? It's a simple enough question. Do they have the choice to change that?

Simple answer: Yes they could choose to change what they see. But from what I understand, God doesn't change what he sees. What he does change is events, not necessarily a person's actions. Yes he CAN choose to "harden a heart", just as in Pharoh's case. Why was it then noted that God had to harden his heart, if he had already determined it to be hardened? This implies that God acts in the moment, not from the very start.

In so far until you mentioned God. When you said it could be changed, free will remained, but when you put God into the equation, you made it unchangeable, thus, you voided free will.

I do not underestand why putting God into the equation voids free will. Please explain.

God's prophecies are simply his sharing of information with his servants. It's a big deal because it's the only time he chooses to share his knowledge with the humans, no? It's nothing special; it voids free will in the same way his omniscience does.

God shared info with Moses without prophecying. He guided them in the wilderness and what not. He allowed other prophets to prophecy future events, which was a big deal. And I think many people misunderstand the omniscience of God.