A Real Debate

[Valley of Chrome]

Of course humans are, but has religion helped better our nature?

No idea.But i actually think it did.Can't explain though.

and Sword for Hire is right.Religion do more good than harm.

[violent_anger]

Originally Posted by Sword for Hire

The very nature of organized religion discourages free thought, and in doing so stifles advance. It creates a schism between the righteous believer and those deemed "unfaithful". In doing so, religion seems to perpetuate a sort of prejudice among people. Why I think it's silly to claim religion solely responsible for the great many wars that have been fought in its name, one must accept that religion has indeed played a part in these conflicts.

I'm tired, so I'm going to cut this short. I don't think religion is a horrible think that has done more harm than good. Still, I don't think it's done more good than harm, either. Concepts like eternity, salvation, and damnation are too great for a person to truly grasp, and the heart of religion is lost to an audience that can't comprehend it.

stifles advance? weren't muslims the most advanced people in the world during the middle ages? weren't aztecs, blood sacrifices and all, evenly matched with the roman empire?

[chaywa]

I find it abhorrent that religion only fits into 2 categoreis according to the poll, either good or bad.

The main issue is not actually that of religion, it is that of education in regard to different cultures and ideals that religion portrays into our society and how to suitably act in accordance

[Phoenix]

would any of those have been as bad without metal either? religion was used as a tool, it's no more at fault for bad things then a bullet.

You can kill with wood. Metal is a tool, religion was a motivation, even if it's originally a good thing.

The question remains, would the world have been better or worst off without religion?

[swizzle]

well this is really difficult, its like some religion brings families together and some fall apart because kids do not follow the religious beleifs their parents do... im pretty sure its a bit of both so im just gonna leave the poll as is because it is a tie right now, 8-8.

[Sword for Hire]

Originally Posted by violent_anger

stifles advance? weren't muslims the most advanced people in the world during the middle ages? weren't aztecs, blood sacrifices and all, evenly matched with the roman empire?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think religion stops advance dead in its tracks. Those are great examples you used. Still, the faithful have a tenancy to be very harsh on those who ask the "wrong" questions or present answers that don't coincide with scripture. Just ask Darwin XD I think a lot more could have been accomplished in the past had people need not have feared persecution or being considered a heretic. I mean, for how long did people just figure that an unfortunate turn of events was simply the work of the devil or demons? Can you imagine how much more advance civilization would be right now had these mindsets never existed to begin with?

[violent_anger]

You can kill with wood. Metal is a tool, religion was a motivation, even if it's originally a good thing.

The question remains, would the world have been better or worst off without religion?

odd, i thought we had established that religion was used as a tool.

the question will remain, because there is no telling what the world would have been like without religion. all we can tell, is what it has done.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think religion stops advance dead in its tracks. Those are great examples you used. Still, the faithful have a tenancy to be very harsh on those who ask the "wrong" questions or present answers that don't coincide with scripture. Just ask Darwin XD I think a lot more could have been accomplished in the past had people need not have feared persecution or being considered a heretic. I mean, for how long did people just figure that an unfortunate turn of events was simply the work of the devil or demons? Can you imagine how much more advance civilization would be right now had these mindsets never existed to begin with?

had those mindsets never existed? that's like saying, 'had baldness never existed'
those mindsets are part of humanity, religion just made it so that people agreed on what they were superstitious about.

[Phoenix]

odd, i thought we had established that religion was used as a tool.

Anything can be used as a tool, it doesn't mean it is one, or was one originally.

the question will remain, because there is no telling what the world would have been like without religion. all we can tell, is what it has done.

So because the question is difficult, we should stop asking it?

[violent_anger]

So because the question is difficult, we should stop asking it?

difficult? no. near damn impossible to answer without being biased? yes.

Anything can be used as a tool, it doesn't mean it is one, or was one originally.

but in these 'acts against humanity' was it used as a tool, or was it actually a reason?

[Inner-Demon]

Religion is a crutch for people that have no spines and that are weak. It's used as a basis of fear and depression, if you can't make a choice, you leave it in god's hands. Throughout history people have always needed to turn to a higher power, if you're unsure of a decision, you'll leave it to your god, if something bad happens, it was god. EVERYTHING has to do with god. You basically give up your entire life and live in a hole while you let chance, or "god", make decisions for you.

If you lay in a road long enough, you'll get hit. God is simply another crutch that people, cowards really, use in times of crisis, because they can't accept their challenges or their own failures. They don't want to step up and take charge, that's the problem with religion. So, yeah, it's done more bad than good.

God doesn't save people, doctors do. You ruin your own life, not Satan. As for conflict, I wouldn't blame that all on religion, where there's a difference, there will always be war, where there's freedom, there will be always be a dictator, that's just the way the world is. Because people are evil, you can never get away from that. With or without religion, war will always exist.

[Demi_Shock]

I do believe in God, but not in religion, because God did give us guidelines and thats all.

He didnt say start groups that believe in this and that.

It seems that each one says their right, will not admit when they are wrong, and thats why crusades start.

I personally dont think people should be telling me how to live my life. Thats God's job.

[Duality]

Originally Posted by Inner-Demon

Religion is a crutch for people that have no spines and that are weak.

Mindlessly bashing religion without basis is not supporting your argument.

Originally Posted by Inner-Demon

It's used as a basis of fear and depression, if you can't make a choice, you leave it in god's hands.

??? God tells you what to do. Your choice is made. Also, human psychology is adapts well to religion and its attributes. However, how does this show that religion is stupid/meaningless?

Originally Posted by Inner-Demon

Throughout history people have always needed to turn to a higher power, if you're unsure of a decision, you'll leave it to your god, if something bad happens, it was god. EVERYTHING has to do with god. You basically give up your entire life and live in a hole while you let chance, or "god", make decisions for you.

What I said before. Furthermore, God does do everything. True. (Of course, I am presuming we are talking about the omnipotent Abrahamic God), but He did not say do not blame yourself. Give up your life? You are worshiping an all-powerful being who is omnibenevolent? How is that giving up your life?

Originally Posted by Inner-Demon

God is simply another crutch that people, cowards really, use in times of crisis, because they can't accept their challenges or their own failures.

Your ignorance knows no bounds. The most courageous people - those who stand up in times of intolerance, and injustice - can be the most religious people as well. The Holocast provides many such stories.

Originally Posted by Inner-Demon

God doesn't save people, doctors do. You ruin your own life, not Satan

Again, more blathering nonsense. If God does not exist, then what you said is true. However, if God does indeed exist, then what? I can guarantee (because God is unfalsifiable) you cannot show that God does not exist. Therefore, you have no intellectual authority to so arrogantly claim that God doesn't save people. (On a side note, God said that you ruin your own life too. Satan just influences).

I suggest you do more than running around claiming God does not exist, and actually attempt to show it. Human psychological tendencies are independent of God's existence.

Originally Posted by Demi_Shock

I do believe in God, but not in religion, because God did give us guidelines and thats all.

He didnt say start groups that believe in this and that.

Show me where God showed us both guidelines and said don't follow organized religion.

Originally Posted by Demi_Shock

I personally dont think people should be telling me how to live my life. Thats God's job.

If God has a prophet, and tells the prophet all His rules, and the prophet then writes down all these rules, would you not abide by these rules? The prophet is human, and he is telling you what to do. Or, if God Himself came down in human form, would you listen then?

[Inner-Demon]

But see, religion isn't always approached that way kiddo. Most people live meaningless lives in hope of finding meaning through god, but they never do, why? Because that's not how life works. Religion IS a crutch, no matter how you slice it. Defending your religion in front of death doesn't make you brave, it makes you a blind idiot. There's standing up for rights and standing up for stupidity.

Most christains I know don't act, don't do anything, and when pressed with a challenge, they sit back like a coward and do nothing, but say they'll leave it to god. That's not ignorance, it's what I've seen. Religion makes people dumber. And when you try to fill those holes up, they throw a fit, like you, because they want to live in those holes.

They're secure in their dark holes because they leave it to some higher being to control, but all you're really doing is giving up your life.

[Sword for Hire]

So, I take it you've met most people? Tell me what they're like, and start from the beginning :D

[Demi_Shock]

Originally Posted by Duality

Show me where God showed us both guidelines and said don't follow organized religion.
If God has a prophet, and tells the prophet all His rules, and the prophet then writes down all these rules, would you not abide by these rules? The prophet is human, and he is telling you what to do. Or, if God Himself came down in human form, would you listen then?

I never said God does not exist. I just said that I dont want to follow religions who all think they are right, because if they are all right, then every single one has contradicted each other.

Dont come off so strong. I could sit here and write a book on what I believe in. I just merely stated that I dont follow a religion and why.

Show me where he does say to organize into religions and exaggerate on his rules to fit thier needs.(If so, Ill admit im wrong, but know that I never claimed exact scripture as proof.) I never said I dont believe in Jesus or Moses and what he said either. Dont put words into my mouth that I didnt say.

I experienced God in my own way. I went to Catholic School for 10 years and went through 4 sacraments. I chose to believe in God, just in my own way, seperate from religions. Tell me where its wrong to believe in God in my own way. I follow his rules in my own way and dont need to hear it interpreted 100 ways.

Would you rather me not believe in him?