Publicly Promoting Atheism?

[Square Ninja]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Yup, you're rather fond of that analogy.

if it's always true, why bother changing the analogy?

[krexia]

Originally Posted by Shade737

Looks like adding another word to it to make it more complicated. I would see them as atheists with some agnostic attributes.

As I said last time we discussed this, if a person says they don't (or can't) know for sure whether god exists, they're agnostic - regardless of how likely or unlikely they think god's existence is. Like Richard Dawkins, I think the existence of god is a stupendously unlikely prospect. But also like Dawkins, I would never claim absolute knowledge of god's non-existence. We are agnostic atheists.

[Ventux]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Erm, how do you know? How many books from ancient Greece have you read, anyway =/?

I don't think you get my point, which is that they are not the deities as described by the religion if the descriptions are false. They might as well not exist in terms of religious claims.

Originally Posted by Alaude Drenxta

And there are those who say that they are. That each "God" is just the product of the last, modified and changed to fit an ever-changing generation.

Since the 1930's, God has changed a lot.

Very true, but that's the concept of God, not the actual God.

[Phoenix]

I don't think you get my point, which is that they are not the deities as described by the religion if the descriptions are false. They might as well not exist in terms of religious claims.

And I don't think you get mine.

You, as an individual, have no way of absolutely knowing if there was some truth to Zeus and his kin. How do you know they don't have the core attributes?

[Ventux]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

You, as an individual, have no way of absolutely knowing if there was some truth to Zeus and his kin. How do you know they don't have the core attributes?

I'm drawing on what we know in this age. You could argue that the Greek gods once existed and then all disappeared without a trace, but that would go against the core belief that they are all powerful immortal deities.

If you're arguing that they still exist in the present age- their core attributes are their influence over the planet and their interactions with humankind, right? We know that both of those are not occuring in any significant form. If the gods only have an insignificant role, they are not the gods as described by the mythology, and the gods described in the mythology do not exist.

[Alaude Drenxta]

Originally Posted by Ventux

Very true, but that's the concept of God, not the actual God.

No, it isn't the being itself, but over time, if a chicken changes into something that resembles a turtle much more than a chicken, where do you draw the line on when you should start calling it a turtle?

A ridiculous analogy, but I'm sure you catch the point.

It honestly is not the same God. It is a very different being who is viewed in a very different light, yet has done nothing different in over 2000 years. The old God is no longer relevant, and has been replaced by something that is much more appeasing to the modern man. Modern man doesn't want a God who is present in his life, wrecking up his few opportunities to do what he wants until he passes on to whatever afterlife he/she may believe in.

God and Allah were once so very similar, as were their followers.
The divergence didn't happen overnight.
You hate your neighbor, and you want God on your side, so God changes to what you would prefer him to be. That is hypocritical.

[Phoenix]

I'm drawing on what we know in this age. You could argue that the Greek gods once existed and then all disappeared without a trace, but that would go against the core belief that they are all powerful immortal deities.

If you're arguing that they still exist in the present age- their core attributes are their influence over the planet and their interactions with humankind, right? We know that both of those are not occuring in any significant form. If the gods only have an insignificant role, they are not the gods as described by the mythology, and the gods described in the mythology do not exist.

Well, God's core attributes are burning bushes and salt people. I've never seen a talking burning bush, or a woman turning into salt, so the Judeo-Christian God doesn't exist.

[Alaude Drenxta]

that would go against the core belief that they are all powerful immortal deities.

They never believed that. Numerous Greek deities died on several occasions. They weren't all-powerful, they didn't have to be.

[Ventux]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Well, God's core attributes are burning bushes and salt people. I've never seen a talking burning bush, or a woman turning into salt, so the Judeo-Christian God doesn't exist.

Twisting my logic, eh?

God is much more complicated than that, however, you could ask why God no longer appears, makes miracles, or casts down judgements. I'm sure a Christian/Jew could cherrypick a few obscure biblical passages, but it isn't explained much at all.

I could go down the line and show that things attributed to God are just a result of physical laws and nature, and the only thing left not fully explained is the creation of the universe.

Originally Posted by Alaude Drenxta

They never believed that. Numerous Greek deities died on several occasions. They weren't all-powerful, they didn't have to be.

Which occasions?

But that begs the question, what killed them all? There's no good reason.

[Phoenix]

Twisting my logic, eh?

No, following its natural progression.

Zeus is much more complicated than that, however, you could ask why Zeus no longer appears, makes miracles, or casts down judgements. I'm sure a neo-pagan could cherrypick a few obscure Iliad passages, but it isn't explained much at all.

I could go down the line and show that things attributed to Zeus are just a result of physical laws and nature, and the only thing left not fully explained is the creation of the universe.

Fixed that for you.

[Ventux]

Wait, were we having a discussion? I forgot.

[Phoenix]

Wait, were we having a discussion? I forgot.

Well, yes. You posted a few minutes ago, even.

[Alaude Drenxta]

Originally Posted by Ventux

Which occasions?

But that begs the question, what killed them all? There's no good reason.

I'm just enough of a bastard to find some.

However, making all concessions, the only full Olympian God known to have died is Pan, god of music, nature, and the hunt.

Demigods, however, died in droves. As did a few of the Titans, parents of the Gods.

But this is very plainly known, they were NOT all-powerful in any way.

[Forever Atlas]

This article is slightly related but mainly the topic about atheist groups emerging more in Universities and Colleges. Brings up a lot of the issues that we have discussed before in the forums. I just didn't want to make a completely new thread on it.

Atheist student groups flower on college campuses - Yahoo! News