Old Testament Scholar: Genesis is not a true Hebrew translation, God was never the "all creator"

[Hidden]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

That might be true in the time the stories were being passed on, but today, there's a very large difference between creation and separation, because the question becomes, does God predate existence, or does existence predate God? If it's indeed an act of separation, then what I can gather is that God is part of the Universe, and not above it.

Perhaps you're right and there are implications beyond what I am admitting. It just seems to me that we're going back to the never-ending question of "and what came before that ?" (Not a bad question in itself, of course, but one that has limited applicability after a point.) Because how do we define a universe or existence before it is separated and brought into an intelligible order; before it has a heaven and an earth that can be named as such?

But let's continue on with your thought, that this (perhaps) new reading of the creation story brings the Abrahamic God within the bounds of our universe. Does this serve to bring God and humanity into closer sympathy, that we are not merely made in His image but ultimately of the same stuff of existence? Or are you just hopeful again at the suggestion that this universe could give birth to a god?

[Phoenix]

Perhaps you're right and there are implications beyond what I am admitting. It just seems to me that we're going back to the never-ending question of "and what came before that ?" (Not a bad question in itself, of course, but one that has limited applicability after a point.) Because how do we define a universe or existence before it is separated and brought into an intelligible order; before it has a heaven and an earth that can be named as such?

We could rephrase the question in another manner: what came first, order or chaos? If God was first, order; if existence predates God, chaos. You can't tell heaven from earth in the chaos, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

We don't have to answer the question of what came first, but we can at least decide what came first between God and the Universe.

But let's continue on with your thought, that this (perhaps) new reading of the creation story brings the Abrahamic God within the bounds of our universe. Does this serve to bring God and humanity into closer sympathy, that we are not merely made in His image but ultimately of the same stuff of existence? Or are you just hopeful again at the suggestion that this universe could give birth to a god?

Well, I'm no expert in mythology, but isn't this how most religions went? In the beginning there was the primordial chaos, and then the gods ordered it and made the heavens, earth, seas, animals, etc.

Philosophically, I haven't really considered the implications, I'd have to give it some thought, but isn't the concept of a deity being eternally existing a modern one?

Lastly, I remain hopeful of the possibility of godlike beings in our Universe, which reminds me, where the Christ is that "what is a god" thread I made years ago?

[Hidden]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

We could rephrase the question in another manner: what came first, order or chaos? If God was first, order; if existence predates God, chaos. You can't tell heaven from earth in the chaos, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

We don't have to answer the question of what came first, but we can at least decide what came first between God and the Universe.

There is no universe without a heaven and earth; we cannot comprehend of existence without separation and order. He who establishes order is He who creates the Universe. To speculate on the 'before' is to speculate on the moment immediately preceding the Big Bang; that being, to the latest of my scientific knowledge, inaccessible. (Admittedly, the latest of my scientific knowledge is a 2006 copy of "Science" magazine, so this may not be so authoritative as I make it out to be.)

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Well, I'm no expert in mythology, but isn't this how most religions went? In the beginning there was the primordial chaos, and then the gods ordered it and made the heavens, earth, seas, animals, etc.

Philosophically, I haven't really considered the implications, I'd have to give it some thought, but isn't the concept of a deity being eternally existing a modern one?

The idea of an eternally existing deity being a modern one--I hadn't even considered this, but it would be fascinating to look into.

I am also very limited in my knowledge of mythology, but many of the creation myths I know of follow the pattern you describe--the bringing of order out of primordial chaos. But the older meaning of chaos, not a confused jumble but a "gaping void", makes one wonder what difference is really there. (Online Etymology Dictionary)

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Lastly, I remain hopeful of the possibility of godlike beings in our Universe, which reminds me, where the Christ is that "what is a god" thread I made years ago?

You've always struck me as the oddest person to want a god(like) being in our own universe, given your complaints against the ones we are proposed already to have.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

...where the Christ...

Also, this made me chuckle in context.

I actually looked for that thread. Can't find it anywhere.

[Phoenix]

There is no universe without a heaven and earth; we cannot comprehend of existence without separation and order. He who establishes order is He who creates the Universe. To speculate on the 'before' is to speculate on the moment immediately preceding the Big Bang; that being, to the latest of my scientific knowledge, inaccessible. (Admittedly, the latest of my scientific knowledge is a 2006 copy of "Science" magazine, so this may not be so authoritative as I make it out to be.)

But we need not speculate; there was a sea before God started his creation. It wasn't ordered, and there was no life or light, but the ancients certainly didn't think God created everything out of nothing.

Also, as I understand it, it's impossible to speculate what happened before the Big Bang, because the word "before" implies time, and there was no space or time.

The idea of an eternally existing deity being a modern one--I hadn't even considered this, but it would be fascinating to look into.

I am also very limited in my knowledge of mythology, but many of the creation myths I know of follow the pattern you describe--the bringing of order out of primordial chaos. But the older meaning of chaos, not a confused jumble but a "gaping void", makes one wonder what difference is really there. (Online Etymology Dictionary)

Probably. As with "separation" and "creation", they probably saw no difference between the two. The distinction is, again, modern. But however they defined it, whether emptiness or a chaotic mass, usually gods come from it. They are born. Order comes from chaos, at least according to mythology.

You've always struck me as the oddest person to want a god(like) being in our own universe, given your complaints against the ones we are proposed already to have.

Well, I want a million dollars. Doesn't mean I believe I have a million dollars right now.

I simply don't want to die, and a god might allow me to avert this.

Also, this made me chuckle in context.

teehee

I actually looked for that thread. Can't find it anywhere.

I think older threads are automatically deleted or something.

[Raiton Kensei]

That is interesting. I'm sure this will be discussed by scholars for a good while.

[Hidden]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

But we need not speculate; there was a sea before God started his creation. It wasn't ordered, and there was no life or light, but the ancients certainly didn't think God created everything out of nothing.

Before an act of separation, there is no distinction between everything and nothing. But as I understand your point, it is that God did not create the universe "from the outside" as it were. I agree with you there.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Also, as I understand it, it's impossible to speculate what happened before the Big Bang, because the word "before" implies time, and there was no space or time.

Just so--and how do we speculate on the existence of things in a universe has not been divided up into "things"?

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Probably. As with "separation" and "creation", they probably saw no difference between the two. The distinction is, again, modern. But however they defined it, whether emptiness or a chaotic mass, usually gods come from it. They are born. Order comes from chaos, at least according to mythology.

Yes, you're right. And it is interesting that we never witness the birth of the God of Genesis. But then, perhaps that would be just a bit redundant; kind of like stating 'the beginning of the beginning.' One might as well start where things start happening.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Well, I want a million dollars. Doesn't mean I believe I have a million dollars right now.

I simply don't want to die, and a god might allow me to avert this.

But you don't think such a god, whether or not born into this universe, would have those same characteristics that you complain against in other gods?

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I think older threads are automatically deleted or something.

A damn shame.

[Phoenix]

Just so--and how do we speculate on the existence of things in a universe has not been divided up into "things"?

I see your point, but we can a least say there was an existence, right?

Yes, you're right. And it is interesting that we never witness the birth of the God of Genesis. But then, perhaps that would be just a bit redundant; kind of like stating 'the beginning of the beginning.' One might as well start where things start happening.

Or maybe we lost that story. We certainly didn't see the angels being created.

But you don't think such a god, whether or not born into this universe, would have those same characteristics that you complain against in other gods?

Arrogance? Megalomania? Probably. But they're not flooding us, at any rate.

Or maybe they've evolved past that and are wise beyond measure. Still not flooding us.

And yes, I'm selfish enough to wish for one if it gives me eternal life.