"But you can't prove God is real!!"

[Teiku 5]

a lot of people say "I don't believe in God, because you can't prove He's real." well, besides the fact that goes against the Christian principle of faith, my teacher made a really good point today in worldvies class.

Prove to me that God isn't real. Just try, because I'd like to see some of your replies.

note: i'm not going to bother responding to replies (for the most part), i'm just interested in your answers.

[Du Soleil.]

The fact is, it's so much easier to disprove God's existence than to prove it. I mean, I really would like to answer this properly but I can't. It just seems like a question in reply to a question.

[TheMuffinMan]

Why should people have to disprove the existence of something that hasn't been shown to exist in the first place? If we go by this logic, should we be assuming that anything the human mind can possibly imagine absolutely exists until it's been properly shown to not exist? In reality, nothing is absolutely proven to not exist, there is only ever an absence of proof that things do exist. There is a lack of proof that a giant flying spaghetti monster controls the universe, but there isn't anything disproving that a giant flying spaghetti monster controls the universe.

So, doesn't it make more sense to ask for proof that something exists before believing in it, than to say you should believe in something until someone can properly disprove it?

[AkiraKiyoshi]

Originally Posted by TheMuffinMan

Why should people have to disprove the existence of something that hasn't been shown to exist in the first place? If we go by this logic, should we be assuming that anything the human mind can possibly imagine absolutely exists until it's been properly shown to not exist? In reality, nothing is absolutely proven to not exist, there is only ever an absence of proof that things do exist. There is a lack of proof that a giant flying spaghetti monster controls the universe, but there isn't anything disproving that a giant flying spaghetti monster controls the universe.

So, doesn't it make more sense to ask for proof that something exists before believing in it, than to say you should believe in something until someone can properly disprove it?

ahhh... it's the concept called "devil's proof" >w>

[ikkuh2]

He who claims for a god to exist has the burden of proof. I deem the odds of a god existing slim, based on the fact that i have been given no objective and viable evidence. That, along with thinking about a god on a purely logical level, has done it for me. This thread should be titled, prove god's existance.

[Shade737]

I sense another circle argument between theists and atheists approaching.

[AkiraKiyoshi]

^ so do i... *hides from the argument*

[Du Soleil.]

This thread pretty much calls for arguments.

[Bangkok Superpussy]

Originally Posted by Teiku 5

Prove to me that God isn't real. Just try, because I'd like to see some of your replies.

1. The Godly Perfection Paradox

If God = infinite Knowledge + infinite Power
and knowing future thoughts = Predestined Choices
Then infinite Knowledge = 0 Free Choices
So infinite Knowledge = 0 Power
Thus, God = imaginary

2. The Infinite Regress Problem:

If God is eternal, then there would be an infinity of thoughts and actions that God would perform before creating our universe, with no origin.

3. The Paradox of Creating Everything:

Since creation is a cause and effect relationship of creator and creation, then the act of creation involves time. Time is required to go from one state to another, such as from past to present. Time would be required to go from creator to creation (cause to effect). So God must exist within time in order to create anything, otherwise, God would be static and thus not be able to move or even think (since these are actions, and actions require time). However, if God exists within time, then God is not the ultimate cause of the existence of everything, because time would always exist with God. So cause and effect demand that time exists in order for creation to be possible, without God demanding it to be so. This shows God to be imperfect and not the ultimate cause of everything. Also, if you believe that God is eternal (existing for an infinite amount of time), then you also believe that time is infinite. It is also important to know that science reveals that outside of universes is the 11th dimensional hyper-space which is nonexistence (no space or time).

4. The First Cause Paradox:

Since cause and effect exist within our universe, and the principles of cause and effect state that every cause is an effect of a previous cause, then a "first cause" of our universe is actually an oxymoron. A "first cause" is basically saying a "first effect" because every cause must be an effect of something else, based on the principles of cause and effect. So if God is the "first cause" of our universe's existence, then there must be a cause of God, and a cause of that cause, for infinity.

4. The Paradox of Creating Cause and Effect:

If God created cause and effect, then cause and effect don't exist outside of our universe with God. But if cause and effect don't exist with God, then creation is impossible, because the action of creation depends on the connection between cause and effect. If cause and effect do not exist with God, then everything would occur spontaneously and be completely unpredictable. God would not be able to know anything, since everything would be completely unpredictable and spontaneous, and God would not be able to create anything, because creation requires that a cause (creator) produces and effect (creation). Without cause and effect existing, God would know nothing and be unable to do anything. God wouldn't even be able to think, since thoughts are created as an effect of a cause (influence).

Satisfied?

[Candy Man]

Originally Posted by Bangkok Superpussy

1. The Godly Perfection Paradox

If God = infinite Knowledge + infinite Power
and knowing future thoughts = Predestined Choices
Then infinite Knowledge = 0 Free Choices
So infinite Knowledge = 0 Power
Thus, God = imaginary

How does showing that we have no power show that God doesn't?

[Teiku 5]

Originally Posted by Bangkok Superpussy

1. The Godly Perfection Paradox

If God = infinite Knowledge + infinite Power
and knowing future thoughts = Predestined Choices
Then infinite Knowledge = 0 Free Choices
So infinite Knowledge = 0 Power
Thus, God = imaginary

i'm not quite sure if i get what you're saying here. i get the frist two lines, but are you saying His infiinite knowledge means we have 0 free choices. i just got a little lost there.

2. The Infinite Regress Problem:

If God is eternal, then there would be an infinity of thoughts and actions that God would perform before creating our universe, with no origin.

and the problem in that lies where exactly? the Judeo-Christian God, as well as many other versions of gods i believe, state that God is eternal. He was there at the beginninng (which we could never understand, hence the infinite past) and will be there until the end (hence the infinite future).

3. The Paradox of Creating Everything:

Since creation is a cause and effect relationship of creator and creation, then the act of creation involves time. Time is required to go from one state to another, such as from past to present. Time would be required to go from creator to creation (cause to effect). So God must exist within time in order to create anything, otherwise, God would be static and thus not be able to move or even think (since these are actions, and actions require time). However, if God exists within time, then God is not the ultimate cause of the existence of everything, because time would always exist with God. So cause and effect demand that time exists in order for creation to be possible, without God demanding it to be so. This shows God to be imperfect and not the ultimate cause of everything. Also, if you believe that God is eternal (existing for an infinite amount of time), then you also believe that time is infinite. It is also important to know that science reveals that outside of universes is the 11th dimensional hyper-space which is nonexistence (no space or time).

that is assuming that God has no control over time itself and that creation would require time. imo, its flawed.

and as for the science "fact" about the 11th dimension, since no has ever seen, felt, etc. this 11th dimension, it takes just as much faith to believe in it (if not more) than it does in God, who is very clearly outlined.

4. The First Cause Paradox:

Since cause and effect exist within our universe, and the principles of cause and effect state that every cause is an effect of a previous cause, then a "first cause" of our universe is actually an oxymoron. A "first cause" is basically saying a "first effect" because every cause must be an effect of something else, based on the principles of cause and effect. So if God is the "first cause" of our universe's existence, then there must be a cause of God, and a cause of that cause, for infinity.

there again, that argument is binding God to science. not matter what version of god we are discussing, I'm sure it should be very clear that He would not be bound to scientific rules, but rather His will and rules. God just IS.

and if we are going to use that argument, then why not apply it to the big bang theory or evolution. where in the universe did anything come from if there was orignially nothing there. it requires an equal (if not more) amount of faith to believe in such a thing since it can not be properly explained by science since it there is no evidence for it but only conjecture and guessing and "theories."

4. The Paradox of Creating Cause and Effect:

If God created cause and effect, then cause and effect don't exist outside of our universe with God. But if cause and effect don't exist with God, then creation is impossible, because the action of creation depends on the connection between cause and effect. If cause and effect do not exist with God, then everything would occur spontaneously and be completely unpredictable. God would not be able to know anything, since everything would be completely unpredictable and spontaneous, and God would not be able to create anything, because creation requires that a cause (creator) produces and effect (creation). Without cause and effect existing, God would know nothing and be unable to do anything. God wouldn't even be able to think, since thoughts are created as an effect of a cause (influence).

i really don't follow the logic of that arugment. yes, there is cause and effect, and yes, I would attribute that to God. but saying that God is not affected by c/e is also saying that God never steps into our world, saying that God never influences our world. where does the problem lie in that?

Satisfied?

No.

[Candy Man]

The basic definition for God's infinity would be beyond our understanding.

Not beyond our capabilities, understanding. Disproving God because you hit a stumbling makes about much sense as saying water is poisonous because ants die in it.

[RememberRoxas]

I beleive in God, but why are there so many atheists on this forum?
Has Kingdom hearts led us to beleive in a real Kingdom hearts and not the Lord himself?
Shame on you people.

[Zion]

In simpler terms of that quote, i'd figure that you're saying God gave man freewill, but if your future is predestined, then that means freewill is in fact a fallacy, and that people have no power to control their destinies or choices in life. If God gives ppl freewill, and yet are lives are predestined then that means that God is incorrect of his own wording, which goes against him/her/itself. I make choices but God knows my choices before hand, so there's no diverted direction of choices, so why create something that will, or certainly will not obey the will of God? Why create a man who will murder with no regrets, or any remorse to society. That's a huge flaw, and if God is perfect, and humans suffer from human err, then why would God be imperfect other than being created through human err. In this case the answer would be that God is imaginary.

[Teiku 5]

@ Marksman - I believe what you're saying is that just because bad things happen to us like injury or tough times would NOT be proof of there being no God. if that's what you're saying that i 100% agree.

@ RR - that's not necessary and is in fact frowned upon in this forum. take it elsewhere.

EDIT: @ Zion - find where it says for me in the Bible (since that's what I'm basing my arguments off of) where it says God gives people freewill. it's actually a pretty big misconception.