Is free will possible with an omnipotent and omniscient god?

[sand_drew]

I believe not.

To explain, say there are two doors and you have to choose the one to go. If God is omniscient he will know which door you will choose and as such your chocie is predetermined. Any choice you may believe you have, is just an illusion.

Another simple question, if God made mankind in his own image and mankind is by its very nature flawed, does that not mean God is flawed?

[Q]

Originally Posted by sand_drew

I believe not.

To explain, say there are two doors and you have to choose the one to go. If God is omniscient he will know which door you will choose and as such your chocie is predetermined. Any choice you may believe you have, is just an illusion.

Another simple question, if God made mankind in his own image and mankind is by its very nature flawed, does that not mean God is flawed?

yes

ultimate perfection in all areas means ultimate perfection in all areas. Unless God is like every single person at once, he can't possibly be anywhere at anytime. That's illogical anyway because then he'd disbelieve himself and believe in other things. God can't exist.

[Aucune Raison]

yes

[Nevermore]

Originally Posted by sand_drew

I believe not.

To explain, say there are two doors and you have to choose the one to go. If God is omniscient he will know which door you will choose and as such your chocie is predetermined. Any choice you may believe you have, is just an illusion.

Here's the thing, you chose that door. For example, I give you foods Type A and Type B. You select Type A. Now, let's say that I knew that you would choose that one. That doesn't make it any less your decision. Causing something to happen, and knowing that it will happen are two different things.

Another simple question, if God made mankind in his own image and mankind is by its very nature flawed, does that not mean God is flawed?

Firstly, mankind did not start out flawed. We became flawed after we were created.

Secondly, we are not God, only made like Him. What this means is that we have a spirit. We were not given God's nature. Therefore we have the capacity to make decisions that God would not (I.E. we can sin), and once Adam and Eve did that, we gained the sin (flawed) nature.

[Q]

Originally Posted by Raven

Here's the thing, you chose that door. For example, I give you foods Type A and Type B. You select Type A. Now, let's say that I knew that you would choose that one. That doesn't make it any less your decision. Causing something to happen, and knowing that it will happen are two different things.

If you know it's going to happen, then their will really isn't free, is it? It's just an illusion of freedom. You can't actually choose if someone knows what you're doing.

Originally Posted by Raven

Firstly, mankind did not start out flawed. We became flawed after we were created.

Secondly, we are not God, only made like Him. What this means is that we have a spirit. We were not given God's nature. Therefore we have the capacity to make decisions that God would not (I.E. we can sin), and once Adam and Eve did that, we gained the sin (flawed) nature.

you're not getting it

God can't create anything IMPERFECT, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS, so he would have to create that imperfection. It makes no sense. Don't give me the bullshit that Satan did it, too - because if God created Satan then he indirectly created evil. =/

[Nevermore]

Originally Posted by Q

If you know it's going to happen, then their will really isn't free, is it? It's just an illusion of freedom. You can't actually choose if someone knows what you're doing.

Yes it is their free will. They make the choice. Whether someone knows it or not doesn't make it any less their decision. It's not an illusion of freedom on their part, they have the right to choose despite whether or not someone knows the outcome.

God can't create anything IMPERFECT, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS, so he would have to create that imperfection. It makes no sense. Don't give me the bullshit that Satan did it, too - because if God created Satan then he indirectly created evil. =/

He did not create imperfection, he created beings with the ability to make decisions. If said beings make the wrong decision, then they caused themselves to become imperfect. It's really not that difficult of a concept. You can blame God for Satan becoming evil all you want, but Satan made his choice all on his own.

[The Lionheart]

Originally Posted by sand_drew

I believe not.

To explain, say there are two doors and you have to choose the one to go. If God is omniscient he will know which door you will choose and as such your chocie is predetermined. Any choice you may believe you have, is just an illusion.

Another simple question, if God made mankind in his own image and mankind is by its very nature flawed, does that not mean God is flawed?

If god gives you a choice between lying and telling the truth, and you lie, are you following the path god wants you to go down?

No. You have the choice.

And if God made mankind in his image, he didn't make mankind exactly like God. He made mankind to imitate himself, but it's not an exact imitation.

[Dogenzaka]

Omnipotent = Can do anything.
Omniscient = Knows everything.
Basically, that has zero to do with whether I have the ability to make my own decisions, which I can, if there was a God or not.

And to clarify, a lot of people seem to think that because God might know everything that they suddenly lose all free-will.
Um? I know that my friends are going to lunch today. They can choose whether they want to or not, but I know my friends, and I know for a fact that they will.
Seeing a movie and knowing how it's going to end doesn't necessarily mean you had anything to do with the way it turns out.

That's about all I'm going to say on this topic.

And if God made mankind in his image, he didn't make mankind exactly like God. He made mankind to imitate himself, but it's not an exact imitation.

True, well while we weren't like God in the sense of his powers/abilities...we were like God in the sense of his image, perfection and justice.

[Grace Assassin]

I think a better question would be that, if there is a God who is omnipotent and omniscient, would that not render free will meaningless?

To elaborate, you are given two options, a right and a wrong one. You choose the wrong one and go to hell for it. Since God already knew you were going to do this (and regardless of the fact that you chose to do it freely), your free will is useless. It would have effectively been better that you never existed, but God brought you into existence knowing full well that you would do wrong anyway.

[Q]

You're not getting it

Dogen said himself - god is perfect. How the fuck can you create something imperfect when you're perfect? You can't do that.

[Dogenzaka]

Since God already knew you were going to do this (and regardless of the fact that you chose to do it freely), your free will is useless. It would have effectively been better that you never existed, but God brought you into existence knowing full well that you would do wrong anyway.

Yeah, but it's kind of a weird, incomprehensible idea to me, because at any time you still have the ability to change your fate until your actual death, and that is totally in your control, yet God knows it. The idea of a God that is above time, space, knowledge or thought is just something too unfathomable by mortal minds, in my opinion.

I mean, it's not like anything can stop you from totally changing that situation and choosing to accept Christ and not go to hell...and considering the reason God created humans was for him to have companions that would worship and commune with him, he enjoys creating us, but he endows us with the will to love him freely or not, because if we were just automatically programmed to obey and love him, it wouldn't be true devotion or affection.

But that's another topic entirely, and yeah

Dogen said himself - god is perfect. How the fuck can you create something imperfect when you're perfect? You can't do that.

Well, apparently He created us in his image except for one thing--we have free will to make our own decisions..(God's hates sin, and therefore his will is to never be a part of it)....and since the only man and woman on earth screwed up and introduced sin (which literally means "missing the mark/imperfection") onto the earth, therefore all their descendants were born into sin. He told Adam and Eve to hate sin and warned them about the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, but they ate it anyway even though there was every other tree possible to eat from. Lol.

[gramp anime scholar]

Even without a god, you wouldn't have free will.

[Ulti]

Free will? Eh, if you say so. Is it truly free if one way gives you Heaven and the other gives you Hell? if you really believe in God, you would want to pick the former way. You say we can make the choice, but if we are taught that only one choice is the right choice, we don't really think of picking the bad choice.

Let's put it another way. A human puts a mouse in a maze. In each room there are two labeled doors. The mouse learns that one door leads to cheese and the other door triggers the shock collar on its neck. The mouse quickly learns which door gives please and which gives pain. The mouse can pick either door. But it will always pick the door that will lead to the cheese. Is it free will?

[Dogenzaka]

Is it truly free if one way gives you Heaven and the other gives you Hell?

Eh, free will isn't just that. It's not about "heaven or hell", it's about what you want to eat, when you decide to shower, go outside, what you want to study, etc. It's the general sense of being able to decide things. Which includes deciding to go to one of two final destinations.

Regardless, if my parents say I'm grounded if I sneak out, I can choose to sneak out at night or not. I still have free will, but I'd best make a wise choice.

But it will always pick the door that will lead to the cheese.

Because humans always follow innate instinct or common sense? Not necessarily. We're complicated...we've sinned...we have deceiving hearts and desires, complex emotions, complicated relationships, etc.

You may be grounded from going to senior prom, and even though you know the consequence for going (being in big trouble), you sneak out because it's senior prom and you feel like you'll never experience anything like it again. Still your decision, albeit unwise, and you didn't choose the "cheese".

If you're talking religiously....then I'd say you're wrong, because the "bad choice" would be to, of course, not go to Heaven, right? Well plenty choose to have nothing to do with God.

[Wayne T. Kurtis]

god is real and therefore so is free will

welll.... maybe

lemme read some stories in my king james edition real quick and let me bget back to you