What do you have to live for? - Page 4

Hidden · 05/06/08, 08:29 PM

The thread starts with the assumption, though not explicitly stated, that a justification of life is teleological in nature, or oriented along final causes/goals. It is not an unreasonable assumption, one that both theistic and atheistic systems employ.

Put simply, the reason I am Here at this moment is because I am headed There (and, equally important, I started from somewhere further back than Here from There). This concept is not so foreign to us--the majority of conscious actions we undertake are goal-oriented. Thus, my justification for exerting myself and hammering boards together is assumedly to have a building or other constructed object. My justification for walking is usually to arrive somewhere--please, for the moment, disregard the obvious "life is a journey" poster comparisons. Point being, if we hold the universe to the same justifications we use, there should be a final justification to such larger conditions as life that we are not able to perceive due only to our temporal and subjective position in it.

This is present in religious thought, but also in Aristotle and in Hegel, though they did not (to my knowledge) apply it to the individual life--theirs were larger justifications of nature and history, into which the individual life fit. For another example, look simply to the myth of human progress--that somehow, atheistically or theistically and by some criterion, things are getting "better". In such models, the end is not found in our individual life, but our individual life is justified as part of the progress toward the much larger end--hence, eternal individual life is not necessary so long as it has played its part.

However, there are some problems with this thought--first, how do we justify the end to which we progress? At what point does an end become self-justifying--why did I build the building I put such effort into? Second, and perhaps most present, is the fact that justification is forever beyond our (foreseeable) grasp. Logically, it is well enough to say that Now will be justified by Then--but facing the fact that we are inextricably tied to the Now, at least so long as life lasts, may cause us to reappraise our methods of thinking about it.

Hence Sartre, and Existence preceding Essence. Such thought says we must start in the Now rather than Then and build meaning and justification from where we stand. The Now, where we stand at the moment, is thus given no automatic value or justification, and nihilism is a very real presence--but there is the potential that we can make our own justifications and meaning by our own designs and wishes; this is opposed to the arbitrary whim of some future we have had no real hand in crafting. Thus Nietzsche's expression of exultation at the "death of the old god"--it turns the present into a dangerous and uncertain position, but one that we can and must determine the worth of.

And that seems to be what a number of posters have replied with--"these are my justifications for the moment, as well as the foreseeable future" (we need not be blind to consequences, which will also become the reality of our Now). Because of this style of thought, the fact that an ultimate Then will recognize none of the fruits of our labors is unimportant--Then no longer determines the worth of Now, it is simply follows from it at some unknowable junction.

*A note on other posts--while Endless Devoid's contributions to discussion are considerable, the personal attacks are unnecessary and unflattering.

**chaywa** · 05/06/08, 09:04 PM

Cogito Ergo Sum

I think therefore I am. I think therefore I act. I act therefore I have an impact on others around me. Therefore, I live to impact upon others. That's all I need to live for...

**Endless Devoid** · 05/07/08, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogenzaka

I don't care what you think of me, I'm not treating you the same hurtful way you are treating me, so please be respectful. You think asking you to be nice to me when I'm doing the same for you, regardless of whether you deserve it or not, is being "self-righteous", "pretentious", and being a "prick"?

You started acting nice when I started acting mean. You are so stuck on yourself, I'm not the only one who thinks you're a christian elitist prick, I promise you. Everyone else is just a lot nicer about it. :/

I don't feel I need to be.

Quote:

As for God having a plan:

And He made known to us the mystery of His will . . . according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Christ, In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will (Ephesians 1:9.11).

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:3,4).

Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is — his good, pleasing and perfect will (Romans 12:2).
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10).

Looks like someone doesn't read the Bible.

Looks like someone just took a bunch of scripture quotes that mention God's will and called it an individual plan for every person's life. God's will is that you understand the truth of his nature and spread the word of the Bible, read more closely, I'm not dumb enough to buy your half-baked, Hilary Clinton, tactics.

Quote:

As for the last part, please, the LAST thing I see you do in this forum is smile or laugh, at least if it's not at my expense.

Ah, that's where you are mistaken. I'm only ever mean and shouting when talking to YOU. ^_^
I don't like you ridiculous, closed-minded cockiness. You deny the possibility of being wrong, assert ridiculous claims (and I don't mean the fact that God exists), and generally act like a know-it-all prick whenever someone says anything. You give this smug shrug off of every bit of evidence presented against you and deny any validity for an opposing argument just because somebody said you were wrong.

So yea, ask anyone who doesn't post exclusively in this section how easy I am to cope with.

Even here, I'm more than willing to speak levelly with someone who gives others the same courtesy.

~~*~NeoAdamus~*~~ · 05/08/08, 09:56 AM

Hmmm Life would be nothing without death. I just live to live and that's the end of it. I much rather prefer to be free, and take trips, and as vulgar as it sounds, do women (yes i said it). If their is one thing i believe in life that is meaningless, its marriage and religion

Religion, just a set of rules to direct your life and enforce the calamities to come while still staying optimistic to a better tomorrow.

Spirituality is the true essence of living, not religion. Religion has only brought war amongst eachother no matter how good it serves to be. Spirituality is the sense of doing good unto others and understanding the morals of life, precisely why a Christian will never be like Jesus........the answer is in front of them but they just dont understand.

Church is meaningless. Ppl scorn you for your absence or small knowledge of Church, but anyone can worship God in their own homes so whats the problem. Not to mention that the many ppl you see at church become rude outside of it, so why are we there again???

Marriage is so screwed up. Hardly anyone marries out of love. Many Women try to make it the fanciest thing ever when couples back in the day could suffice in an area that was memorable and beautiful sharing an exchange of vows to eachother under the name of God. Simple and understanding without the hassle of spending thousand, millions of dollars for a ceremony. Suddenly we can break the promise of God through a couple of papers. Holy matrimony my ass LOL

**Thelonepickle** · 05/11/08, 01:45 AM

I live because it sure beats any of the alternatives I can think of.

Which consist of...

Not living.

EDIT: Wouldn't NOT believing in any sort of afterlife make THIS one THAT much more important to those of us who DON'T believe in something more?

YOU'RE the one who should be thinking, "lol well this is only a temporary stage, so i do this for teh lulz."

I'M the one who has nothing after this, so I'm savouring every minute.

While I sit here on the internet in between blowing my nose and checking the TV Guide. Yeah. Perfect sense. >.>

Just put the Knife DOWN · 05/30/08, 01:27 AM

My drill is one that will pierce the Heavens, bitch!

EDIT: And ED is way more tolerable than you. Fun, even. =P

HadesDragon · 05/30/08, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhythm of Apathy

My drill is one that will pierce the Heavens, biatch!

lol @ the Guren Lagann reference.

Cameron · 05/30/08, 01:29 AM

Quote:

I think therefore I am. I think therefore I act. I act therefore I have an impact on others around me. Therefore, I live to impact upon others. That's all I need to live for...

Pretty shallow existance you got going there.

I live to, uh, enjoy life? That sounds pretty fufilling, I guess.

Ningacom · 05/30/08, 01:34 AM

I live because I want to see what happens

...

yup

Infinite Nova · 05/30/08, 01:35 AM

I'm here because I want to do whatever it is that makes me feel happy.

I don't care if I die tomorrow, I got my go at life.

Life's life, no need to be all depressed about all of us dying. That's a concept that's pretty easy for anybody to grasp above the age of, oh, ten or eleven?

We're born, we reproduce (unless your a loser lololol), then we die. Everything in between is simply a bonus we got this time 'round.

Pelafina · 05/30/08, 01:39 AM

Meh. I like food. And I like sleeping.

So I stick around.

Just put the Knife DOWN · 05/30/08, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hidden

The thread starts with the assumption, though not explicitly stated, that a justification of life is NEEDED

There we go, I made a few corrections. An incorrect assumption, of course.

~~Sir Meta Knight~~ · 05/30/08, 03:36 AM

Marcus Aurelius, a supporter of Stoicism (my personal philosophical standpoint), once said that "a man's worth is no greater than his ambitions."

I want to live because I want to have an impact on anyone. Not that I want to be remembered, just that I want the ability to impact something, someone, whether it be with a joke to lighten their mood, comfort to a friend, or volunteering, etc. That's my reason.

InfiniteTwilight · 05/30/08, 04:20 AM

I guess I live for achieving and being around the people who care for me.
Reaching my goals and others rooting for me push me to keep going.
I'd also live to become a better person as well.
Plus I got too many goals to accomplish before kicking the bucket and rotting in the ground.

Phoenix · 05/30/08, 06:19 AM

So, is this thread sufficiently answered? People can find meanings in their life with or without God. Everyone agree?

05/06/08, 08:29 PM	#46
Hidden Twilight Knight Join Date: May 2005 Location: Room of Guf Posts: 774 Rep Power: 4	Re: What do you have to live for? The thread starts with the assumption, though not explicitly stated, that a justification of life is teleological in nature, or oriented along final causes/goals. It is not an unreasonable assumption, one that both theistic and atheistic systems employ. Put simply, the reason I am Here at this moment is because I am headed There (and, equally important, I started from somewhere further back than Here from There). This concept is not so foreign to us--the majority of conscious actions we undertake are goal-oriented. Thus, my justification for exerting myself and hammering boards together is assumedly to have a building or other constructed object. My justification for walking is usually to arrive somewhere--please, for the moment, disregard the obvious "life is a journey" poster comparisons. Point being, if we hold the universe to the same justifications we use, there should be a final justification to such larger conditions as life that we are not able to perceive due only to our temporal and subjective position in it. This is present in religious thought, but also in Aristotle and in Hegel, though they did not (to my knowledge) apply it to the individual life--theirs were larger justifications of nature and history, into which the individual life fit. For another example, look simply to the myth of human progress--that somehow, atheistically or theistically and by some criterion, things are getting "better". In such models, the end is not found in our individual life, but our individual life is justified as part of the progress toward the much larger end--hence, eternal individual life is not necessary so long as it has played its part. However, there are some problems with this thought--first, how do we justify the end to which we progress? At what point does an end become self-justifying--why did I build the building I put such effort into? Second, and perhaps most present, is the fact that justification is forever beyond our (foreseeable) grasp. Logically, it is well enough to say that Now will be justified by Then--but facing the fact that we are inextricably tied to the Now, at least so long as life lasts, may cause us to reappraise our methods of thinking about it. Hence Sartre, and Existence preceding Essence. Such thought says we must start in the Now rather than Then and build meaning and justification from where we stand. The Now, where we stand at the moment, is thus given no automatic value or justification, and nihilism is a very real presence--but there is the potential that we can make our own justifications and meaning by our own designs and wishes; this is opposed to the arbitrary whim of some future we have had no real hand in crafting. Thus Nietzsche's expression of exultation at the "death of the old god"--it turns the present into a dangerous and uncertain position, but one that we can and must determine the worth of. And that seems to be what a number of posters have replied with--"these are my justifications for the moment, as well as the foreseeable future" (we need not be blind to consequences, which will also become the reality of our Now). Because of this style of thought, the fact that an ultimate Then will recognize none of the fruits of our labors is unimportant--Then no longer determines the worth of Now, it is simply follows from it at some unknowable junction. A note on other posts--while Endless Devoid's contributions to discussion are considerable, the personal attacks are unnecessary and unflattering. Last edited by Hidden; 05/06/08 at 11:49 PM.*

05/06/08, 09:04 PM	#47
chaywa (E)motion Isn't Meaning Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chamber of Guf Age: 19 Posts: 5,230 Rep Power: 11	Re: What do you have to live for? Cogito Ergo Sum I think therefore I am. I think therefore I act. I act therefore I have an impact on others around me. Therefore, I live to impact upon others. That's all I need to live for...

05/08/08, 09:56 AM	#49
~~~NeoAdamus~~~ Banned Join Date: May 2007 Location: あなたのお母さんベッド uh huh Age: 19 Posts: 3,207 Rep Power: 0	Re: What do you have to live for? Hmmm Life would be nothing without death. I just live to live and that's the end of it. I much rather prefer to be free, and take trips, and as vulgar as it sounds, do women (yes i said it). If their is one thing i believe in life that is meaningless, its marriage and religion Religion, just a set of rules to direct your life and enforce the calamities to come while still staying optimistic to a better tomorrow. Spirituality is the true essence of living, not religion. Religion has only brought war amongst eachother no matter how good it serves to be. Spirituality is the sense of doing good unto others and understanding the morals of life, precisely why a Christian will never be like Jesus........the answer is in front of them but they just dont understand. Church is meaningless. Ppl scorn you for your absence or small knowledge of Church, but anyone can worship God in their own homes so whats the problem. Not to mention that the many ppl you see at church become rude outside of it, so why are we there again??? Marriage is so screwed up. Hardly anyone marries out of love. Many Women try to make it the fanciest thing ever when couples back in the day could suffice in an area that was memorable and beautiful sharing an exchange of vows to eachother under the name of God. Simple and understanding without the hassle of spending thousand, millions of dollars for a ceremony. Suddenly we can break the promise of God through a couple of papers. Holy matrimony my ass LOL

05/11/08, 01:45 AM	#50
Thelonepickle I don't like bugs! Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,737 Rep Power: 7	Re: What do you have to live for? I live because it sure beats any of the alternatives I can think of. Which consist of... Not living. EDIT: Wouldn't NOT believing in any sort of afterlife make THIS one THAT much more important to those of us who DON'T believe in something more? YOU'RE the one who should be thinking, "lol well this is only a temporary stage, so i do this for teh lulz." I'M the one who has nothing after this, so I'm savouring every minute. While I sit here on the internet in between blowing my nose and checking the TV Guide. Yeah. Perfect sense. >.>

05/30/08, 01:27 AM	#51
Just put the Knife DOWN srsly Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Earth. Age: 17 Posts: 1,107 Rep Power: 4	Re: What do you have to live for? My drill is one that will pierce the Heavens, bitch! EDIT: And ED is way more tolerable than you. Fun, even. =P

05/30/08, 01:34 AM	#54
Ningacom DON'T LOOK AT MY FACE Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: 511 Age: 15 Posts: 1,720 Rep Power: 3	Re: What do you have to live for? I live because I want to see what happens ... yup

05/30/08, 01:35 AM	#55
Infinite Nova God By Default Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: .siht daer uoy esuaceb emit ruoy detsaw tsuj I Age: 14 Posts: 2,453 Rep Power: 7	Re: What do you have to live for? I'm here because I want to do whatever it is that makes me feel happy. I don't care if I die tomorrow, I got my go at life. Life's life, no need to be all depressed about all of us dying. That's a concept that's pretty easy for anybody to grasp above the age of, oh, ten or eleven? We're born, we reproduce (unless your a loser lololol), then we die. Everything in between is simply a bonus we got this time 'round.

05/30/08, 01:39 AM	#56
Pelafina getting lonely, getting old Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: through the window in the wall Age: 16 Posts: 2,511 Rep Power: 4	Re: What do you have to live for? Meh. I like food. And I like sleeping. So I stick around.

05/30/08, 03:36 AM	#58
~~Sir Meta Knight~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: over the rainbow Posts: 3,188 Rep Power: 0	Re: What do you have to live for? Marcus Aurelius, a supporter of Stoicism (my personal philosophical standpoint), once said that "a man's worth is no greater than his ambitions." I want to live because I want to have an impact on anyone. Not that I want to be remembered, just that I want the ability to impact something, someone, whether it be with a joke to lighten their mood, comfort to a friend, or volunteering, etc. That's my reason.

05/30/08, 04:20 AM	#59
InfiniteTwilight The World Begins With... Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: In a cereal box Posts: 1,397 Rep Power: 2	Re: What do you have to live for? I guess I live for achieving and being around the people who care for me. Reaching my goals and others rooting for me push me to keep going. I'd also live to become a better person as well. Plus I got too many goals to accomplish before kicking the bucket and rotting in the ground.

05/30/08, 06:19 AM	#60
Phoenix Blaaargh! Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Borinquen Age: 20 Posts: 13,871 Rep Power: 19	Re: What do you have to live for? So, is this thread sufficiently answered? People can find meanings in their life with or without God. Everyone agree?

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