Creationism/Intelligent Design in Schools

[HadesDragon]

Originally Posted by fantasygurl1227

You must not have any common sense, it's pretty self explanatory.

Uncalled for.

I have confidence that God does exist. And if I'm right, then I know that when I die, that I will be going to the place that I belong. But if I'm wrong, its unfortunate, but according to liberal scientists that won't even consider Intelligent design, we just die and then there is nothing, so there is really nothing to lose by having a strong faith that god is real. Believe in a god and be wrong, there will be nothing when I die, believe in a god and be write, obtain eternal life after death.

You, like many others, fail to understand the nearly infinite possibilites regarding the existence of God(s)(by the way, do you adhere to any particular religion? If so, which?). What if we're both wrong, eh? He could very well be a God that values wisdom, knowledge, and the search for the truth instead of things such as the blind faith you possess, as I noted in an earlier post.

He could also be an evil God, sending us all to eternal torment after death. Could be that the real God is an indifferent one that merely created the universe out of boredom and offers no such afterlife merely because he doesn't want to be bothered providing us with such a thing. See what I mean? So many possibilites exist, you're just going on the basis that it's just what you believe in that exists and has a chance of being right.

So in essence, your statement that you have "nothing to lose" is flawed ultimately, you're taking just as much a risk as any other theist and non-theist.

Also, why SHOULD scientists even consider intelligent design? Michael Behe himself, one of its great advocates, preffered devoting his time to things he considered more fruitful than trying to prove it, so if people like him won't, why should the scientific comunity?

It's not a science in any way, shape or form. It cannot be tested, proved, and relies solely on belief and highly subjective, debatable arguments that are largely considered flawed by the scientific community, and that's not what science is at all.

Originally Posted by Dawning Kensei

Have fun in Hell.

You said eternal life. Frankly, I'd rather be nothing than be in Hell.

Same here. The human mind, as far as I'm concerned, couldn't possibly handle eternal life, we'd all snap at one point or another and beg for death.

[fantasygurl1227]

Why do scientists try to disprove religion so much, what is wrong with believing in a higher entity creating the universe? When they cannot prove that we are wrong either. Your right though, there may very well be multiple Gods, and i don't see the sense in a God creating us, letting us live, and then patiently waits for us to die in order to torture us for all of eternity, but then again i don't know. But regardless I will follow my path as a Christian, I will not be shaken by anyone, you may believe this is stupid and meaningless, but thats your opinion. We all have a freedom to believe what we want right?

[HadesDragon]

Originally Posted by fantasygurl1227

Why do scientists try to disprove religion so much, what is wrong with believing in a higher entity creating the universe? When they cannot prove that we are wrong either.

Uh, no offense or anything, but you can't prove Apollo is real or not, but if I were to guess I would say you would think believing in him is laughable. Same thing for all the other gods that are largely considered false today, and even other such beings as invisible pink unicorns and other magical creatures.

Your right though, there may very well be multiple Gods, and i don't see the sense in a God creating us, letting us live, and then patiently waits for us to die in order to torture us for all of eternity, but then again i don't know.

I wouldn't necessarily want to believe in such a God either, but if I saw things that pointed towards such a God existing, I'd believe in him. Would you?

But regardless I will follow my path as a Christian, I will not be shaken by anyone,

>: I can see we're very different. You certainly don't think I won't let anything affect my beliefs, do you? For instance, if I heard a few good arguments and/or saw some proof of your God existing, I might believe in him.

[fantasygurl1227]

Maybe you will someday, if not, we'll both know what happens when we die

[Phoenix]

Why do scientists try to disprove religion so much, what is wrong with believing in a higher entity creating the universe?

What is wrong with believing in Santa Claus? Absolutely nothing. But it's false. Scientists do not actively try to disprove religion; that's not their area, and not their problem

When they cannot prove that we are wrong either. Your right though, there may very well be multiple Gods, and i don't see the sense in a God creating us, letting us live, and then patiently waits for us to die in order to torture us for all of eternity, but then again i don't know. But regardless I will follow my path as a Christian, I will not be shaken by anyone, you may believe this is stupid and meaningless, but thats your opinion. We all have a freedom to believe what we want right?

The statements I bolded contradict one another. If you admit you do not know, then the honest thing is admit that you'd be willing to change your beliefs if a good enough argument presented itself. By admitting that you don't know, but then claiming that nothing will change your mind, even though you don't know, you're telling me you're close-minded.

but according to liberal scientists that won't even consider Intelligent design

As this is closest to the original topic, I chose to respond to it.

Are you complaining about scientists not considering non-science? Name one scientific argument for* ID.

*for means "for ID", not "against evolution"

[Hollow Bastion]

Believe in a god and be wrong, there will be nothing when I die, believe in a god and be right, obtain eternal life after death.

And just a quick toss-out here, Pascal's Wager is not seen as valid. It assumes there's only one religion, and you either believe in it, or you don't believe in god. It disregards the existence of other religions.



As far as ID, all it does it says that since we can't fathom how nature works, it MUST be the case that someone designed/created it. That someone is the intelligent designer/creator. Coincidentally, God fits that bill.

There is no scientific basis for that; it's just giving up the search for the answer and performs exactly what religion does in explaining the origins of the world.

[Dogenzaka]

Are you complaining about scientists not considering non-science? Name one scientific argument for* ID.

*for means "for ID", not "against evolution"

The fact that a living thing cannot just zap into reality out of non-living matter. Or can it? That's the answer that needs to be shown. Some of the most respected scientists in the Expelled video said that it's possible life formed on the backs of crystals. Richard Dawkins said that it's possible that a superior race from another planet created us, yet he scoffs at the idea of a deity-being creating us. We know all the basic elements that form a human body, and yet we can't create one out of nothing. When basic proteins were shocked with electricity in an attempt to form amino-acids (I might have this totally wrong, excuse me) it was impossible to create any living thing despite its attempts. How can a living thing come from a non-living substance on its own, and how can matter simply come into existence from nothing on its own?

Rock-solid comeback

There's no point in explaining anything to you, as you're just going to rain down your sarcastic insults and wit because I'm a "Christian". You've already shown bias towards me.

Stereotype much?

You people hurl your filth in the faces of the rest of humanity and deface the integrity of the rest of the human race just for disagreeing with you.

lol.

I'll say what I want. If you're insulted, you'll see how much I care. =3
I'll come back when I feel like it. :/

That's not the way it works here. There are rules, and if you have any dignity you would control yourself. I'm trying my best to be as polite as possible to you right now, and if you can't treat me with the same respect simply because of my views, and you blatantly refuse to be courteous, then I have no choice to report you if you keep calling religious people and/or I, "psychotic" and "dumbass". You may say "my people" "hurl our filth in the faces of the rest of humanity and deface the integrity of the rest of the human race just for disagreeing with us", but in my stead, the only one I see who can't keep their cool in disagreement is you.

And why is that? Mind elaborating?

Simple:
If you're a Christian and it turns out nothing happens when you die, you at least lived a good-moralled life with principles and guidelines to life, and you will die like the rest of them.

If you're not a Christian and you're wrong, well, you know what happens.

[HadesDragon]

He said "for ID", Dogen, not against evolution/abiogenesis. Also, as far as I know, humans have created life in labs before.

Also, again, God is the same thing: how can all-mighty being just pop out of nowhere and always have been there?

Simple:
If you're a Christian and it turns out nothing happens when you die, you at least lived a good-moralled life with principles and guidelines to life, and you will die like the rest of them.

If you're not a Christian and you're wrong, well, you know what happens.

-__- You should read the other posts in the thread Dogen. HB and I have both been through this, Dogen: Pascall's Wager sucks. It assumes that only one religion exists and ignores the presence of all others. Go a little while back and read my posts about the possibilities regarding the existence of God(s).

Also, even assuming Pascall's Wager was valid (and it isn't), it Christianity isn't real, nothing. If it's real, I still get nothing. Hell is a lie created by the Catholic church, there's Gehenna, Tartarus, Hades (lol), and Sheol. None of them are explicitly portrayed as a place of eternal suffering. Aaaand since I don't want to go to heaven anyway, I prefer it that way. =D

[Dogenzaka]

He said "for ID", Dogen, not against evolution/abiogenesis. Also, as far as I know, humans have created life in labs before.

I was talking about that as an argument for ID off the top of my head...that life is more complicated than I believe could have happened out of pure nothing for no reason all on its own randomly.

Really? Mind linking if you happen to have a link, please? If not, it's okay.

Also, again, God is the same thing: how can all-mighty being just pop out of nowhere and always have been there?

The concept Christians believe is that there never was a "pop out of nowhere". He was just there. Always. Hard to fathom, but it's the concept Christians believe.

Same here. The human mind, as far as I'm concerned, couldn't possibly handle eternal life, we'd all snap at one point or another and beg for death.

Well we wouldn't be bound to the limitations of physical bodies, as the Bible describes us being in spiritual forms. Human brains can only be so smart lol.

[HadesDragon]

Originally Posted by Dogenzaka

I was talking about that as an argument for ID off the top of my head...that life is more complicated than I believe could have happened out of pure nothing for no reason all on its own randomly.

You have your opinion, I respect that, but you realize it's very subjective evidence, if even evidence at all. And you'd need some objective evidence in this case.

Also, you do know that irreducible complexity has long since been proven false, yes?

Really? Mind linking if you happen to have a link, please?

Eh, it's just off the top of my head, could be false. I'll go have a look and see what I can find.

EDIT: Apparently, I was wrong, sorry. We haven't been able to create "life" yet. Key word being "yet". =P

The concept Christians believe is that there never was a "pop out of nowhere". He was just there. Always.

That's kind of what I meant, maybe I should have worded it differently. Still doesn't make too much sense to me, but whatever. xD

Hard to fathom, but it's the concept Christians believe.

Ever considered the universe might be the same case? I mean, that it's always been there and keeps renewing itself?

Well we wouldn't be bound to the limitations of physical bodies, as the Bible describes us being in spiritual forms. Human brains can only be so smart lol.

(shrugs) I dunno then. Still, I wouldn't take heaven even it was real. xD I'm imperfect, what can I say?

[Phoenix]

The fact that a living thing cannot just zap into reality out of non-living matter. Or can it? That's the answer that needs to be shown. Some of the most respected scientists in the Expelled video said that it's possible life formed on the backs of crystals. Richard Dawkins said that it's possible that a superior race from another planet created us, yet he scoffs at the idea of a deity-being creating us. We know all the basic elements that form a human body, and yet we can't create one out of nothing. When basic proteins were shocked with electricity in an attempt to form amino-acids (I might have this totally wrong, excuse me) it was impossible to create any living thing despite its attempts. How can a living thing come from a non-living substance on its own, and how can matter simply come into existence from nothing on its own?

I reiterate, proof FOR ID. As in, objective rock-hard proof for ID. If you can't do it, no, it's not a scientific theory, and you're invoking the god of the gaps argument.

"We don't know how it happened, so it didn't".

[Endless Devoid]

Not nice to be on the side of the argument that is persecuted, bombarded, and publicly degraded, is it?

People of faith have found it neccesary to FIGHT for what they believed in for centuries. People who follow a path of sense, logic, intelligence instead of blind faith in something that quite frankly is just one excuse after another, have been attacked and dragged through the dirt. That's exactly what Ben Stein's movie was. You don't seem people making movies about how Christianity is being forced on people or how it's some big load of bullshit, they'd never get away with it, there'd be a riot outside the theatre.

Yet, if you're a christian, it's okay to persecute other people?

I live in the bible belt, so don't tell me it doesn't happen. There's a damn KKK meeting center 5 minutes from my house, they actually forcibly converted an atheist once last year. The short version is, they made him aware of the existence of a wrathful God....by reading him scripture.

No denying it, it's in the holy book that you define your entire life by, and define as infallible.



It's funny though, you think atheists don't have any morals, values, or principles to live by. Pathetic really, you're jsut so pretentious.

The fact that a living thing cannot just zap into reality out of non-living matter. Or can it?

Uhhhh.....YES
That's the premise of the Big Bang Theory.
It's just a theory because we weren't there and have no physical evidence that's what happened. Heavy concentrations of inversely polarized energy can create matter.

If an infinite vat of energy is a god, then I'll submit to the possible existence of a God. But an intelligent God with consciousness of his existence? No. He may be the product of that energy, or hell even a catalyst, but not a conscious being, not one with the same abstract intellect of a human being, certainly not the same physically.

[Dogenzaka]

Uhhhh.....YES

;]
"We don't know how it happened, so it must have just poofed into existence" - Science
"We don't know how it happened, so it must have just poofed into existence" - Religion.

People of faith have found it neccesary to FIGHT for what they believed in for centuries.

Well don't herd me into the flock of people who decide to bomb buildings for Allah.

eople who follow a path of sense, logic, intelligence instead of blind faith in something that quite frankly is just one excuse after another, have been attacked and dragged through the dirt.

Well don't herd me into the flock of people who carry picket signs outside of funerals that say "TURN OR BURN!"

That's exactly what Ben Stein's movie was. You don't seem people making movies about how Christianity is being forced on people or how it's some big load of bullshit, they'd never get away with it, there'd be a riot outside the theatre.

I don't see Christianity (for the most part) being forced on anyone now.
-They almost edited the freaking pledge of allegiance for extremists
- Almost anything to do with religion is illegal in schools
- You can't be discriminated by religion in almost any place that has money involved

I don't see where you would feel pressed by Christianity, other than some wacko people, and yet some NICE people, who share their testimony.

Yet, if you're a christian, it's okay to persecute other people?

Not at all, in fact I get persecuted all the time. Look at you.

I live in the bible belt, so don't tell me it doesn't happen.

As do I.
But because some religious extremists who mis-interpret the Bible and want to force people into Christianity by any means necessary plague you/have in the past, doesn't mean I, my congregation, or everyone else who carries a Bible does it.

There's a damn KKK meeting center 5 minutes from my house, they actually forcibly converted an atheist once last year. The short version is, they made him aware of the existence of a wrathful God....by reading him scripture.

So the God of the Bible is a God of many stances, yeah. Doesn't mean you can "scare" someone into Christianity. It doesn't work, it just makes them like it less, and be convinced more easily by someone else to leave it. It's not real love and respect for God. Also, it's obvious to any genius that the KKK is a religious extremist group of nutcases.

It's funny though, you think atheists don't have any morals, values, or principles to live by. Pathetic really, you're jsut so pretentious.

Now I'm "pathetic", keep it coming.
As for morality, that's a different issue. Everyone's morality stick is different lengths, there is no morality when everyone has their own idea, in my opinion.

I reiterate, proof FOR ID. As in, objective rock-hard proof for ID. If you can't do it, no, it's not a scientific theory, and you're invoking the god of the gaps argument.

Well I'm not talking about scientific theory, as with it you can't disprove the existence of a God either.

The paragraph I wrote is simply something short that can give some support to the IDEA of ID or Creationism being possibly true.

[Phoenix]

Well I'm not talking about scientific theory, as with it you can't disprove the existence of a God either.

"Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to prove it. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven (see negative proof)."

Not my job to disprove God.

The paragraph I wrote is simply something short that can give some support to the IDEA of ID or Creationism being possibly true.

Incorrect. Even if you were to completely and utterly destroy the theories of evolution and Big Bang, that wouldn't do jack for ID. For it to be science, you need proof FOR it. If you don't have this, keep it out of the classrooms because it's religion.

[HadesDragon]

Originally Posted by Dogenzaka

;]
"We don't know exactly how it happened. To put it in terms you'll understand, we think it just poofed into existence, but even if we don't understand everything about the matter yet, we have proof for our claims and will continue to search for the truth." - Science
"We don't know how it happened, so it must have just poofed into existence, even though we have no proof whatsoever." - Religion.

There, that looks a little better. =P