God's Kingdom

[Forever Atlas]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Oh, aye, it was your choice, but how you're raised always affects this. Also, you picked examples where the parent would not actually punish the child, but support him.

ahhhh n/m xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Phoenix]

my bad but you get what I'm saying though right?

I understand what you're saying, but I'm worried if it's the same for you. You are aware that punishment is the last thing used by a parent, this punishment is temporary, and solely exists so that the child learns to do better next time?

Also, after the child grows independent, the parent loses the right to punish his child.

[monkeybutt]

I'm not sure I understand, I thought the entire universe was God's?

[Phoenix]

Are you asking me, or someone else?

[Square Ninja]

Originally Posted by Master T

So we're ignoring "The Kingdom of God is at hand" are we?


That is very close. The Mustard Seed wasn't an annoying weed, really. It's just that a mustard seed (especially the ones they used) are about the size of the head of a pin. So they are these really really small things, which really helps the purpose of its respective parable.

What I've been taught (which is from a scholar that studied with Raymond Brown, who was an elite biblical scholar of his time) is that the Kingdom of God is the resurrection of the people starting with Jesus Christ. Mind you, resurrection does not mean resuscitation. Resurrection, as this mentor described and most scholars agree, is a transformation of a more complete faith in YHWH.

Next, for the love of Sleipnir stop taking Prophetic books matching them with the Gospels. Because one prophetic book said this doesn't mean that the prophecy is correct, the evangelists who wrote the damn Gospels take the imagery and sayings from Prophetic books as well as other Old Testament texts to emphasize their points/describe who Jesus is (a writing technique called midrash), not to prove the Prophetic books right on said "prediction."

Read this before you continue the same ****ing argument from every other Religion section thread.

[Morning Twilight]

Pheonix, you're really starting to piss me off. You read this post and you KNOW that it was intended for people of Christian faith, yet you just have to get some perverse joy in wanting to try to force your beliefs on others by trying to prove them wrong, destroying their faith and their very way of life. Your whole argument is based on what you believe. There is no accurate definition of perfection. We've never seen it! How in the world can you say that "perfect beings don't need to prove themselves?" You are acting even more immature and ignorant than anyone on here. Because if you have even known anything about the Bible you would know that Monarchy is NOT a human creation. The things about Divine Right I believe can be started back with King David. God was like, "go pick this person to be my buddy on Earth and rule the land that I have chosen. Go get him to be my KING!"
Also with your beliefs, just think about them for a second. If you are so smart and you know that there is nothing smarter than humans, take a serious thought if your beliefs are truly beneficial to you. If all humans have fear of death, being unloved, and loneliness, then why is a belief that quells those so bad? See, we Christians will (even if God is false) always be able to not have these fears until death. But you, if you get in a position where you are alone, proven that you are unloved, or close to death, you will be afraid as crap, your life will suck. So tell me, who's life is more "right" the life that can live with comfort, love, and courage, or the one you've chosen that has the bleak resonance that death is the final end breaking all hope that is the evolutionary trait that keeps people alive.

Also, after the child grows independent, the parent loses the right to punish his child.

This is only recently that this ever happened. Throughout most of history's human civilizations, parents could always punish their child. Maybe this is true for America that legally they can't. But I'll tell you what, my Mom and Dad will always be able to punish me, cuz they're my parents. I respect their decisions knowing that they just might know something I don't and they're looking out for me.

Yes dude, but like I said, the parent does to better their child. This is why the punishment is temporary: the parent's ultimate purpose is to see the child happy. With which part are you in disagreement?

And this point brings one of yours back around. Remember when you said that people can't enjoy food unless they know/are hungry. Well you just fell into a trap with this because our punishment is temporary. Note: Christ. Our punishment only exists until we say, "sorry Dad for doing wrong." And then his Kingdom comes and so does perfection, making his children HAPPY.

What parent do you know punishes their children for the sake of punishing? Parents punish their children because they love them, simple as that. The difference between a parent's punishment and the common christian hell is that hell is eternal pain. What purpose would it serve anyone to torture someone eternally? If you learn your lessons, how could you apply them?

Pheonix, there has been another post that truly, there is no Hell. No reference in the Bible that it is a true place that we will go to as a punishment. There is a Lake of Fire, but it is not Hell. There is a noun, which is referenced as hellfire or in the state of hell. Which is just basic bad in general. God does punish us because he loves us. Thank you for that, there is a verse: Deuteronomy 8:5 "Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the LORD your God disciplines you." Since you just said that man disciplines his child for the reason of love and that alone, this says that God does in the same way. There are other verses too, but I think this one makes the best connection.

Pheonix, look, if you want to question and learn, then go ahead and post. But seriously, I take great offense to you constantly trying to poke holes in religions. This was meant to be a positive discussion not the full blown argument that you've turned it into. If you want to help, and truly help according to our faith, then do so, but if we want an argument, we'll ask for one.

[Phoenix]

Pheonix, you're really starting to piss me off. You read this post and you KNOW that it was intended for people of Christian faith, yet you just have to get some perverse joy in wanting to try to force your beliefs on others by trying to prove them wrong, destroying their faith and their very way of life.

It takes more than one person, and more than one point of view, to form a discussion. You know what the funny thing is? I originally posted none of that "forcing on whatever" crap you're babbling about, but instead, I said "Why a Kingdom? Why not a Republic :<?". Someone replied to me, I replied back, and we discussed it (what section are we posting in again?). However, you seem to be having fun demonizing me, so don't let a silly thing like reason stop you.

Your whole argument is based on what you believe. There is no accurate definition of perfection. We've never seen it! How in the world can you say that "perfect beings don't need to prove themselves?" You are acting even more immature and ignorant than anyone on here.

I've stated like 5 times that the things I say are my imperfect, subjective human opinion. You must've missed it, of course.

Because if you have even known anything about the Bible you would know that Monarchy is NOT a human creation. The things about Divine Right I believe can be started back with King David. God was like, "go pick this person to be my buddy on Earth and rule the land that I have chosen. Go get him to be my KING!"

See, you should rephrase that:

"Because if you have even known anything about the Bible you would know that the Bible claims Monarchy is NOT a human creation."

Isn't that better?

As for your claim, King David? Seriously?

In the Bible and many related religious texts, David (c.1037 BC - 967 BC; reigned Judah c.1007 BC - 1000 BC, Judah and Israel c.1000 BC - 967 BC[1]; Hebrew: דָּוִד, Standard Dawid Tiberian Dāwîḏ, Arabic: داوود or داود, Dāwūd, "beloved") is the second king of the united Kingdom of Israel after Saul.

So if I find a King that existed before 1037 BC, what happens?

Also with your beliefs, just think about them for a second. If you are so smart and you know that there is nothing smarter than humans, take a serious thought if your beliefs are truly beneficial to you. If all humans have fear of death, being unloved, and loneliness, then why is a belief that quells those so bad? See, we Christians will (even if God is false) always be able to not have these fears until death. But you, if you get in a position where you are alone, proven that you are unloved, or close to death, you will be afraid as crap, your life will suck. So tell me, who's life is more "right" the life that can live with comfort, love, and courage, or the one you've chosen that has the bleak resonance that death is the final end breaking all hope that is the evolutionary trait that keeps people alive.

See, this is the belief that I, perhaps unfairly, have a problem with. You'd rather believe in a comfortable lie than in the truth, regardless of what it is? I personally put a lot of stock in the truth, so this is biased, but I am simply unable to respect a belief that prefers a lie over the truth.

Note, I'm not saying I don't respect the belief in something if you believe it to be the truth, that is another story, just not this stance about the lie being better.

Lastly, you speak of my life as if it were sad? I have family and friends, they provide me with those qualities you described; what more do I need?\

This is only recently that this ever happened. Throughout most of history's human civilizations, parents could always punish their child. Maybe this is true for America that legally they can't. But I'll tell you what, my Mom and Dad will always be able to punish me, cuz they're my parents. I respect their decisions knowing that they just might know something I don't and they're looking out for me.

Ah, so you believe a parent always has the right to tell a child what to do, no matter what age, no matter what experience? You're entitled to that belief, but humanity wouldn't have gotten very far if we had stuck with what dad and mom think was right.

And this point brings one of yours back around. Remember when you said that people can't enjoy food unless they know/are hungry. Well you just fell into a trap with this because our punishment is temporary. Note: Christ. Our punishment only exists until we say, "sorry Dad for doing wrong." And then his Kingdom comes and so does perfection, making his children HAPPY.

I ACTIVATED YOUR TRAP CARD?!

Seriously, though, that comment is directed at people who believe hell is a place of etenral punishment without escape.

Pheonix, there has been another post that truly, there is no Hell. No reference in the Bible that it is a true place that we will go to as a punishment. There is a Lake of Fire, but it is not Hell. There is a noun, which is referenced as hellfire or in the state of hell. Which is just basic bad in general. God does punish us because he loves us. Thank you for that, there is a verse: Deuteronomy 8:5 "Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the LORD your God disciplines you." Since you just said that man disciplines his child for the reason of love and that alone, this says that God does in the same way. There are other verses too, but I think this one makes the best connection.

Duh. Anybody would know the Lake of Fire has never been called Hell or anything similar if they read Revelations. Again, this is directed at the people who believe everything remotely firey in the bible is Hell and pain goes all around forever there.

You would know that had you read my posts.

Pheonix, look, if you want to question and learn, then go ahead and post. But seriously, I take great offense to you constantly trying to poke holes in religions. This was meant to be a positive discussion not the full blown argument that you've turned it into. If you want to help, and truly help according to our faith, then do so, but if we want an argument, we'll ask for one.

I'm curious, though, why was this very angry post directed at me (responding to other people) and not at anyone else (responded to me)?

Whatever you may think, however rough the way I debate seems, I haven't disrespected the religion. I've gone so far as to acknowledge that I am a human, and therefore, imperfect when it comes to judging anything. That said, this is the Discussion section, we discuss. You think I would make a thread called "Why Atheism Rocks (only atheists allowed)", and not expect people to come in pointing out why it doesn't? That's just naive. I post in a Discussion Forum, therefore, I expect discussion. Is this unreasonable?

[Axel Owns]

See, this is the belief that I, perhaps unfairly, have a problem with. You'd rather believe in a comfortable lie than in the truth, regardless of what it is? I personally put a lot of stock in the truth, so this is biased, but I am simply unable to respect a belief that prefers a lie over the truth.

Whatever you may think, however rough the way I debate seems, I haven't disrespected the religion. I've gone so far as to acknowledge that I am a human, and therefore, imperfect when it comes to judging anything. That said, this is the Discussion section, we discuss. You think I would make a thread called "Why Atheism Rocks (only atheists allowed)", and not expect people to come in pointing out why it doesn't? That's just naive. I post in a Discussion Forum, therefore, I expect discussion. Is this unreasonable?

if calling the religion a lie isn't disrespecting it, i don't see what is. and, if you're 'imperfect when it comes to judging anything', just as all of us are, then who's to say you aren't wrong about this?

and what's the worst thing that can happen to you if you believe that something good will happen to you when you die?

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Whatever you may think, however rough the way I debate seems, I haven't disrespected the religion. I've gone so far as to acknowledge that I am a human, and therefore, imperfect when it comes to judging anything. That said, this is the Discussion section, we discuss. You think I would make a thread called "Why Atheism Rocks (only atheists allowed)", and not expect people to come in pointing out why it doesn't? That's just naive. I post in a Discussion Forum, therefore, I expect discussion. Is this unreasonable?

this isn't a thread saying "why christianity rocks" this is a thread asking people what they think the kingdom of god is. if you want to say you don't think there is a kingdom of god, you by all means have the right to say that.

but you're coming into a thread such as "how do i get through deep jungle in KH?" and saying "KH sucks, i think FF is a way better series."

[Phoenix]

if calling the religion a lie isn't disrespecting it, i don't see what is. and, if you're 'imperfect when it comes to judging anything', just as all of us are, then who's to say you aren't wrong about this?

Read closer, why don't you? I referred to his statement that it's better to believe in Goid, eve if it was a lie.

and what's the worst thing that can happen to you if you believe that something good will happen to you when you die?

See, this is exactly what I mean. Why do you feel insulted when you just implied that the truth was irrelevant?

but you're coming into a thread such as "how do i get through deep jungle in KH?" and saying "KH sucks, i think FF is a way better series."

Refer to my first comment in the first page, then get back to me.

[Axel Owns]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Read closer, why don't you? I referred to his statement that it's better to believe in Goid, eve if it was a lie.



See, this is exactly what I mean. Why do you feel insulted when you just implied that the truth was irrelevant?



Refer to my first comment in the first page, then get back to me.

1) & 3) my fault, i apolagize for my uninformed comment. sometimes i jump into things before reading the whole story.

2) Why would i feel insulted if you called my religion a lie? you tell me.

and the truth is what you believe it to be. I'm not saying the truth is irrelevant. I'm saying "why not believe in a religion where you go to heaven?" i'd rather believe i go to a better place than believe i'm going to turn into a tree, be ground into paper, and have the bible printed on me (sorry for the short dane cook reference xD)

i really just want to say that i believe my religion is true, as you believe yours is. Many times, the truth is what you want it to be.

[Phoenix]

2) Why would i feel insulted if you called my religion a lie? you tell me.

Again, I have never called your religion a lie. What I have attacked is the fact that you and others would be willing to support it even if in reality it was a lie (not saying it is).

"and what's the worst thing that can happen to you if you believe that something good will happen to you when you die?"

What you imply here is that the feeling of comfort is superior to the truth of the belief itself. Whether your religion is true or not is irrelevant right now, I'm attacking the fact that even if it was bogus, you'd find nothing wrong with people believing in it.

and the truth is what you believe it to be.

No, it isn't. This table is red. Even if 6 billion humans said it was blue, it wouldn't change the fact that it's red. Truth is not what you want it to be, truth is truth.

I'm not saying the truth is irrelevant. I'm saying "why not believe in a religion where you go to heaven?"

Your 2 sentences contradict each other. You first claim truth is relevant, then follow it up by implying a pretty belief that makes you feel good is worth believing, even if it isn't true.

i'd rather believe i go to a better place than believe i'm going to turn into a tree, be ground into paper, and have the bible printed on me (sorry for the short dane cook reference xD)

Here we come to the crux of it all. See, the thing is, what you'd rather believe or not has no bearing on reality. I'd like it very much if dragons existed, but that doesn't believe I'll believe in dragons for the hell of it. You can choose to believe whatever you want, it's your right, but at least to me, the truth is worth more than that. If your god really exists, then that's what I want to stick by because that's the truth. If he doesn't, then I want to know that shit too because that's the truth.

Don't take anything I say as offensive. Trust me, that's not my intention.