God's Kingdom

[Einon SAMA]

Again, I do not know, but neither do you, and again, I am using logic. How often do you see intellectuals trying to debate philosophy with factory workers? And that's a bad analogy, since they're both human; a God trying to prove a point to a human using human suffering as an example is just petty.

When a case arises I bet any intellecual would like to prove what is true. It seems that God does need to prove we need his rulership. Especially someone like you. You see, any nonbeliever needs it proven to, to be frank.

Ah, but that's not what I asked. I asked if the idea of justice precedes God, or if God created the idea of justice.

He created and abides by it. Simple.

The analogy doesn't apply because dust cannot think. In my fixed example, then no, God doesn't have a right to toy with the lives of his dust particles. I'd go even further and say it's his responsibility those dust particles come to no harm, like a parent would do, because he made them. If he doesn't help the dust particles, then he's a deadbeat dad, and like all deadbeat dads, forsakes all rights he had with said particles.

To summarize, toying with self-aware lives makes you a prick.

Here is where you and I differ. I believe he is my creator, therefore gives him the right to have my worship. I can worship him or not. It is my choice. But it is what he wants. What he, the creator of all things wants, is the only thing that really matters.

He seems to know what is TRULY best for man therefore he wants what is best. What is best is for us to follow his guidance.

God does not toy with humans. He punishes them sure. If they are wicked which HE SAYS NOT TO BE.

And who created them selfish?

Make no mistake, they weren't made selfish. They were made perfect, good and free. They used that freedom in the worse possible way. They began to think selfishly when the serpent tempted them...by doing something that God told them not to do. So disobedience leads to selfishness. Is it so hard to be obedient? Especially when you have absolutley NO reason not to be?

You see, I'm no expert in God, but I do understand humans quite a bit, so in my experience, if you've never seen death, you don't know what it is. And seeing as how eating from the Mighty Tree of Badness gave them knowledge, the logical conclusion was that they were indeed ignorant as children before eating from it.

You act as if Adam had no idea why animals went to sleep and never woke up. Or even the concept of lonliness. Adam named animals and was very knowledgable about the lifecycle. When God finally made Eve, Adam was extatic. He warned her that they would DIE if they 'touched' the tree. He knew what death was and saw it amoung the animals. He had a direct relationship with God. So you are very wrong about that.

A daddy tells his genius kid "don't touch the rat poison because it will kill you like it kills the rats that touch it. So make no mistake, son. If you touch it, you will positively die as the rats die". Kid touches the rat poison because a strange talking dog tells him that he will be even as smart as his dad and will not have to listen to him or follow his rules (even though you have everything you could possibly want and need currently).. Logical conclusion: send him to a psyche ward. And pay for the bill.

Fix't

[Phoenix]

When a case arises I bet any intellecual would like to prove what is true.

He wouldn't torture a small animal to prove his point, though.

It seems that God does need to prove we need his rulership. Especially someone like you. You see, any nonbeliever needs it proven to, to be frank.

Refer to mankind's achievements. Have we exploded ourselves? No? Then apparently, we don't. I'm not going to argue with you over wther perfection is good or not, but you're using the word "need", and, again, we're still alive.

He created and abides by it. Simple.

Then define justice for me.

Here is where you and I differ. I believe he is my creator, therefore gives him the right to have my worship. I can worship him or not. It is my choice. But it is what he wants. What he, the creator of all things wants, is the only thing that really matters.

He seems to know what is TRULY best for man therefore he wants what is best. What is best is for us to follow his guidance.

God does not toy with humans. He punishes them sure. If they are wicked which HE SAYS NOT TO BE.

Then we are at a standstill. You believe a creator has the right to do whatever he wants with his creations, I believe my life has inherent value regardless of my position in the cosmic order or my power.

Make no mistake, they weren't made selfish. They were made perfect, good and free. They used that freedom in the worse possible way. They began to think selfishly when the serpent tempted them...by doing something that God told them not to do. So disobedience leads to selfishness. Is it so hard to be obedient? Especially when you have absolutley NO reason not to be?

.... so they were made unselfish and become selfish for no reason? They were made perfect, yet disobeyed, as you said, for no reason? I'm not buying that fish. If you are made perfect, there is no way you can become imperfect, and if you do, you were never perfect to begin with.

You act as if Adam had no idea why animals went to sleep and never woke up. Or even the concept of lonliness. Adam named animals and was very knowledgable about the lifecycle. When God finally made Eve, Adam was extatic. He warned her that they would DIE if they 'touched' the tree. He knew what death was and saw it amoung the animals. He had a direct relationship with God. So you are very wrong about that.

Ah, well this is a point of view I've never heard of. So things did die in the Perfect Garden? Death has always been part of the master plan?

Fix't

You forgot to mention you bought the talking dog, and you left the door to your kid's room open while he was in the house. Also, you were aware that the dog would like nothing more than for the kid to eat the rat poison..... and at no point threw the dog out of the house. Then when the kid eats the rat poison, you throw his scrawny little ass out in the curb. You do nothing to the dog, however, though you do invite him over to bet on how much can other kids suffer before they curse you once in a while.

Also, I agree with you that Eve was a schizo. lol talking snakes

[Forever Atlas]

Phoenix I think that you are jumping on Einon because you think that he believes the same as a lot of other people so then that thus his beliefs are all corrupted and would make no sense... but he doesnt believe what 95% of the world's so-called Christians believe. No hell fire, no spirit, no trinity, no partiality, etc. there's a lot i think you have to look at first. maybe if someone else was saying those things you may jump on him, but u have to look at where he is comin from first.

[Einon SAMA]

He wouldn't torture a small animal to prove his point, though.

And in what way is anyone being tortured by God? If anything he's getting ready to save mankind from it's sad state. You say

we're still alive...

You are still alive, Pho. My mom as of last November isn't, I wont always be and neither will you. I don't know about you but i'm sick of death. The point is that people die. Nobody wants to die! We aren't meant to. We want to live forever because thats how we were designed, and thats what God is going to let happen. My beliefs anyway... Do not bother commenting on the "designed" part. I know your beliefs.

Also, it is truly a sad time to "be alive" in this day. That is no achievment that after 6000 years of human history people are still killing, raping, stealing from, kidnapping...eachother. I bet if God ruled the world none of that would happen. You are placing the blame on God too much. His day is coming. The Bible claims that "he is not slow respecting his time." It may seem like he is allowing this to continue for too long, but thats from our small point of views. But you having your beliefs are incapable of viewing it any other way.

.... so they were made unselfish and become selfish for no reason? They were made perfect, yet disobeyed, as you said, for no reason? I'm not buying that fish. If you are made perfect, there is no way you can become imperfect, and if you do, you were never perfect to begin with.

They were simply made. Then something , the serpent, put it in their minds to rebel against God. Thats the reason. Againt, its not a perfection you can compare to a toy or a human creation. And I am using perfection from the Bible's view. If you sin then you are imperfect. Once they 'sinned' they became imperfect.

Ah, well this is a point of view I've never heard of. So things did die in the Perfect Garden? Death has always been part of the master plan?

The promise of everlasting life in the Garden was for man. It was man to have in subjection the animals. Man's duty was to "be fruitful and fill the earth." That is God's original purpose and it remains the same today. He's not sending the good to heaven nor anyone else to a burning hell.

You forgot to mention you bought the talking dog, and you left the door to your kid's room open while he was in the house. Also, you were aware that the dog would like nothing more than for the kid to eat the rat poison..... and at no point threw the dog out of the house. Then when the kid eats the rat poison, you throw his scrawny little ass out in the curb. You do nothing to the dog, however, though you do invite him over to bet on how much can other kids suffer before they curse you once in a while.

Say I made the dog with free will just as I made my genius son. So the dog chose to be jealous of me and turn my genius son against me. He succeeded. Big whoop. Its not my fault my genius son can't listen and heed warnings. I am free from blame. (Further note, it wasn't actually the serpent speaking, just Satan making it seem like it. ftw... >>) just wanted to say that.

Why don't I have this same hatred toward God as you do? My hatred is toward the disobedient man and woman who put mankind in this state today.

[Phoenix]

And in what way is anyone being tortured by God? If anything he's getting ready to save mankind from it's sad state.

Job comes to mind. You remember the book of Job, no?

You are still alive, Pho. My mom as of last November isn't, I wont always be and neither will you. I don't know about you but i'm sick of death. The point is that people die. Nobody wants to die! We aren't meant to. We want to live forever because thats how we were designed, and thats what God is going to let happen. My beliefs anyway... Do not bother commenting on the "designed" part. I know your beliefs.

No, Einon, we do not want to die. I don't want to die, and the day I face my death, I will be scared shitless. This does not mean we are not meant to die because, whether you choose to believe it or not, death is a necessary part of life. Our planet contains finite space, and so does the Universe. It can hold a certain amount of sentient life, and if God created the Universe before he created mankind, he'd know this. This mean what? It means that without death, there is no birth.

Whenever we eat, we invariably kill something. Hell, just breathing kills countless bacteria in the air. Eating a fruit spells death for the seeds inside it. And I'll say this, though it is obviously a personal opinion you do no agree with: man would not be able to handle eternal life.

Also, it is truly a sad time to "be alive" in this day. That is no achievment that after 6000 years of human history people are still killing, raping, stealing from, kidnapping...eachother. I bet if God ruled the world none of that would happen. You are placing the blame on God too much. His day is coming. The Bible claims that "he is not slow respecting his time." It may seem like he is allowing this to continue for too long, but thats from our small point of views. But you having your beliefs are incapable of viewing it any other way.

It's sad to be alive on this day? I don't know, chief, it seems sadder to live at any time that is not today to me. When's the last time in history when humans, regardless of sex, race, sexual orientation and religion, were given such freedom? I still contend that you're a pessimist. Give us 500 years, will you?

The promise of everlasting life in the Garden was for man. It was man to have in subjection the animals. Man's duty was to "be fruitful and fill the earth." That is God's original purpose and it remains the same today. He's not sending the good to heaven nor anyone else to a burning hell.

So, do explain to me how do we fill the Earth without mortality rates and not overpopulate it.

Say I made the dog with free will just as I made my genius son. So the dog chose to be jealous of me and turn my genius son against me. He succeeded. Big whoop. Its not my fault my genius son can't listen and heed warnings. I am free from blame.

The Genesis never gives indication of Adam's mental abilities. I assume he was ignorant because the Tree was called the Tree of Knowledge.

(Further note, it wasn't actually the serpent speaking, just Satan making it seem like it. ftw... >>) just wanted to say that.

And God punished the serpent for the shits and giggles.

Also, I will refer to it as the talking serpent because nowhere in the OT is the serpent actually called Satan at any point.

Why don't I have this same hatred toward God as you do? My hatred is toward the disobedient man and woman who put mankind in this state today.

You give me far too strong of an emotion. There is dislike, but not dislike towards God, as I've never met the being, dislike towards the idea that this God thinks so little of his creations, blames them for design flaws he should've known about and believe his proving a point is more important than anyone living on Earth today.

[Einon SAMA]

Originally Posted by Smooth

Phoenix I think that you are jumping on Einon because you think that he believes the same as a lot of other people so then that thus his beliefs are all corrupted and would make no sense... but he doesnt believe what 95% of the world's so-called Christians believe. No hell fire, no spirit, no trinity, no partiality, etc. there's a lot i think you have to look at first. maybe if someone else was saying those things you may jump on him, but u have to look at where he is comin from first.

heh. Thanks, Smooth but worry not. Pho has always been out to get me. Lol.

[Forever Atlas]

How was it possible for Adam to sin if he was perfect?

As to Adam’s being perfect, read Genesis 1:27, 31 and Deuteronomy 32:4. When Jehovah God pronounced his earthly creation, including man and woman, to be “very good,” what did it mean? For One whose activity is perfect to have said that what he made was “very good,” it must have measured up to his perfect standards.

Did perfection require that Adam and Eve be unable to do wrong? The maker of a robot expects it to do exactly what he has programmed it to do. But a perfect robot would not be a perfect human. The qualities viewed as essential are not the same. Adam and Eve were humans, not robots. To humankind, God gave the ability to choose between right and wrong, between obedience and disobedience, to make moral decisions. Since this is the way humans were designed, the inability to make such decisions (and not an unwise decision) is what would have indicated imperfection.—Compare Deuteronomy 30:19, 20; Joshua 24:15.

For Adam and Eve to qualify as being created perfect, must all their decisions thereafter be right? That would be the same as saying that they had no choice. But God did not make them in such a way that their obedience would be automatic. God granted them the ability to choose, so that they could obey because they loved him. Or, if they allowed their hearts to become selfish, they would become disobedient. Which means more to you—when someone does something for you because he is forced to do it or because he wants to?—Compare Deuteronomy 11:1; 1 John 5:3.

How could such perfect humans become selfish, leading to acts of sin? Although created perfect, their physical bodies would not continue to function perfectly if not provided with proper food. So, too, if they let the mind feed on wrong thoughts, this would cause moral deterioration, unholiness. James 1:14, 15 explains: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin.” In the case of Eve, the wrong desires began to develop when she listened with interest to Satan, who used a serpent as his mouthpiece. Adam heeded the urging of his wife to join her in eating the forbidden fruit. Instead of rejecting the wrong thoughts, both nourished selfish desires. Acts of sin resulted.—Gen. 3:1-6.

Why does God not do something to bring relief to mankind? Why should we all suffer for something that Adam did?

In the Bible, God tells us how we can avoid much suffering. He has provided the very best counsel on living. When applied, this fills our lives with meaning, results in happy family life, brings us into close association with people who really love one another, and safeguards us against practices that can bring much needless physical suffering. If we ignore that help, is it fair to blame God for the trouble that we bring upon ourselves and others?—2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:97-105.

Jehovah has made provision to end all suffering. He created the first human pair perfect, and he lovingly made every provision so that life would be pleasant for them. When they deliberately turned their backs on God, was God obligated to intervene so as to shield their children from the effects of what the parents had done? (Deut. 32:4, 5; Job 14:4) As we well know, married couples may have the joys that go with producing children, but they also have responsibilities. The attitudes and actions of parents affect their children. Nevertheless, Jehovah, as an expression of marvelous undeserved kindness, sent his own dearly loved Son to earth to lay down his life as a ransom, to provide relief for those of Adam’s offspring who would appreciatively exercise faith in this provision. (John 3:16) As a result, the opportunity is open to people living today to have what Adam lost—perfect human life, free from suffering, in a paradise earth. What a generous provision that is!


But why would a God of love allow the suffering to continue so long?

Have we benefited because he has allowed it until now? “Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2 Pet. 3:9) If God had immediately executed Adam and Eve, following their sin, none of us would be in existence today. Surely that is not what we would want. Moreover, had God at some later time destroyed all who were sinners, we would not have been born. The fact that God has allowed this sinful world to exist until now has afforded us the opportunity to be alive and learn his ways, to make needed changes in our lives, and to avail ourselves of his loving provisions for eternal life. That Jehovah has granted us this opportunity is an evidence of great love on his part. The Bible shows that God has a set time to destroy this wicked system and will do so soon.—Hab. 2:3; Zeph. 1:14.

God can and will undo all the harm that may come upon his servants in this system of things. God is not the one who is causing the suffering. But by means of Jesus Christ, God will raise the dead, heal obedient ones of all their illnesses, root out every trace of sin, and even cause former grief to fade from our minds.—John 5:28, 29; Rev. 21:4; Isa. 65:17.

The time that has elapsed has been needed to settle the issues that were raised in Eden. For details, see pages 363, 364, also 428-430.

We personally are anxious to have relief. But when God takes action, it must be in behalf of all who love what is right, not just a few. God is not partial.—Acts 10:34.

Illustrations: Is it not true that a loving parent may allow a child to undergo a painful operation because of beneficial results that can come from it? Also, is it not true that “quick solutions” to painful ailments are often only superficial? More time is frequently needed in order to eliminate the cause.

Why did God not forgive Adam and so prevent the terrible suffering experienced by mankind?

Would that really have prevented suffering or would it, instead, have made God responsible for it? What happens when a father simply overlooks deliberate wrongdoing on the part of his children rather than take firm disciplinary measures? The children often get involved in first one form of wrongdoing and then another, and much of the responsibility lies with the father.

Similarly, if Jehovah had forgiven Adam’s deliberate sin, it would really have made God a party to the wrongdoing. That would not have improved conditions on earth at all. (Compare Ecclesiastes 8:11.) Furthermore, it would have resulted in disrespect for God on the part of his angelic sons, and it would mean that there was no real basis for hope of anything better. But such a situation could never have occurred, because righteousness is an unalterable foundation of Jehovah’s rulership.—Ps. 89:14.

[Phoenix]

heh. Thanks, Smooth but worry not. Pho has always been out to get me. Lol.

Wait, what? When have I accused you of believing in the common Christian Hell? I asked you about the book of Job, a book in the Bible, in which God and Satan make a bet over whether Job would curse God if tortured long enough or not.

For Adam and Eve to qualify as being created perfect, must all their decisions thereafter be right? That would be the same as saying that they had no choice.

You've hit the nail on the head, though your conclusion is wrong. A perfect being is perfect, no flaws, no bad decisions, nothing. You're right, a perfect humans would resemble a robot, but there is a crucial difference. A robot would only do the good thing because it is programmed to do so, but a perfect human would always do the right thing because it chooses to. Out of 10,000 problems, if a human picks 9,999 rights decisions and 1 wrong one, it was never perfect to begin with, as it is impossible for a perfect being to make and imperfect choice.

In the Bible, God tells us how we can avoid much suffering. He has provided the very best counsel on living. When applied, this fills our lives with meaning, results in happy family life, brings us into close association with people who really love one another, and safeguards us against practices that can bring much needless physical suffering. If we ignore that help, is it fair to blame God for the trouble that we bring upon ourselves and others?—2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:97-105.

I don't think love and faith can protect you from a criminal with a knife, regardless of whether you've followed God's counsel or not.

Illustrations: Is it not true that a loving parent may allow a child to undergo a painful operation because of beneficial results that can come from it? Also, is it not true that “quick solutions” to painful ailments are often only superficial? More time is frequently needed in order to eliminate the cause.

See, the problem with this type of analogies is that you're treating the whole of humanity as one single human. An operation is good because all its killing is cells in the body, cells that regenerate, but when applied to humanity, it is equivalent to saying God is willing to sacrifice some to save some. Saving all while avoiding suffering should not be impossible for a being who is supposedly omnipotent.

Would that really have prevented suffering or would it, instead, have made God responsible for it? What happens when a father simply overlooks deliberate wrongdoing on the part of his children rather than take firm disciplinary measures? The children often get involved in first one form of wrongdoing and then another, and much of the responsibility lies with the father.

God is already responsible for it. A Creator is directly responsible for anything its creation might do. God chose to give free will, therefore, God is responsible for all the wrongdoing that are made while using that free will. When an engineer makes a bridge, if that bridge breaks, he's responsible.

[Forever Atlas]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

God is already responsible for it. A Creator is directly responsible for anything its creation might do. God chose to give free will, therefore, God is responsible for all the wrongdoing that are made while using that free will. When an engineer makes a bridge, if that bridge breaks, he's responsible.

you look not for truth, but to criticize.

also, i hope u dont have any kids... cause in your terms... if they do anything wrong, or illegal, you should be the one going to jail.

[Phoenix]

you look not for truth, but to criticize.

That's a pretty big assumption there. I could say you look not for truth, but for comfort.

also, i hope u dont have any kids... cause in your terms... if they do anything wrong, or illegal, you should be the one going to jail.

...... Earth to Smooth. If your 5-ear old breaks something in a store, you pay for it.

[Forever Atlas]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

That's a pretty big assumption there. I could say you look not for truth, but for comfort.



...... Earth to Smooth. If your 5-ear old breaks something in a store, you pay for it.

comfort? lol.... sure it is comforting... but its not what made me stick to what i found. ive seen the proof with my own eyes, i've experienced it, i've been part of it... through years of searching, and constantly proving to myself if what i have is right.... constant study of many diff religions, constant study of my own beliefs, constant testing out of things... otherwise it would be useless my faith.

and as for the punished... so you are saying when they turn 40 too your children, you'll have to still pick up after them....

[Phoenix]

comfort? lol.... sure it is comforting... but its not what made me stick to what i found. ive seen the proof with my own eyes, i've experienced it, i've been part of it... through years of searching, and constantly proving to myself if what i have is right.... constant study of many diff religions, constant study of my own beliefs, constant testing out of things... otherwise it would be useless my faith.

Bully for you. Then don't make assumptions of me, neh?

and as for the punished... so you are saying when they turn 40 too your children, you'll have to still pick up after them....

Why no, but by that age, I have no right to tell them anything. However, if they're doing crimes, then obviously I screwed up raising him, unless he's mentally unbalanced.

[Forever Atlas]

i think your animosity stems from twisted teachings (correct me if im wrong) that are all around us and i dont blame you, thats why i used to be the way i was. and unfortunately not everyone will find what i found or even want it... but thats their own choice and hey its all good.

and i think thats why u try shoot down everything i say, because as i have seen in a lot of your responses what u think i believe and what some others believe, but its not... and if you knew that, then you might see where we are coming from.

[Phoenix]

i think your animosity stems from twisted teachings (correct me if im wrong) that are all around us and i dont blame you, thats why i used to be the way i was. and unfortunately not everyone will find what i found or even want it... but thats their own choice and hey its all good.

and i think thats why u try shoot down everything i say, because as i have seen in a lot of your responses what u think i believe and what some others believe, but its not... and if you knew that, then you might see where we are coming from.

Nice try, but wrong. I like debating, that's why I do it. You're over-analyzing; in my mind, you're wrong because making any objective conclusion based on subjective experience is ignorant.

But that's not what we're debating, is it? The point you had a problem with was over whether a Creator has a responsibility towards his creations or not. If a kid grows up to be a criminal, the parents screwed up. Why you're so hesitant to apply this to god, even though you're willing to compare him to a parent, is beyond me.

Finally, if you don't want people to assume things of you, you might want to try doing the same.

[Forever Atlas]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Nice try, but wrong. I like debating, that's why I do it. You're over-analyzing; in my mind, you're wrong because making any objective conclusion based on subjective experience is ignorant.

But that's not what we're debating, is it? The point you had a problem with was over whether a Creator has a responsibility towards his creations or not. If a kid grows up to be a criminal, the parents screwed up. Why you're so hesitant to apply this to god, even though you're willing to compare him to a parent, is beyond me.

Finally, if you don't want people to assume things of you, you might want to try doing the same.

thats strictly because you dont know the reasons why. Because of perfect justice and perfect wisdom beyond human comprehension... humans do what they think fit and see how far we have gotten? you have to realize the whole issue at hand and not just scrutinize one small portion of it.