God's Kingdom

[wu tang goku]

So we're ignoring "The Kingdom of God is at hand" are we?

God's Kingdom, despite the literalistic interpretations here, refers to the people. See, Jesus' teachings were all about what was really important about people's faith. Sure, he talks about a specific religion, but look at his old "mustard seed" analogy. Jesus talks about how the faith should be like the mustard seed, a common, annoying weed in that era, something that's seemingly impossible to uproot and get rid of, basically Jesus being topical about the Romans. It's more about remaining steadfast not just in a religious standpoint per se, but extends to the community. Judaism was much more like a community than a widespread religion as we know it today.

That is very close. The Mustard Seed wasn't an annoying weed, really. It's just that a mustard seed (especially the ones they used) are about the size of the head of a pin. So they are these really really small things, which really helps the purpose of its respective parable.

What I've been taught (which is from a scholar that studied with Raymond Brown, who was an elite biblical scholar of his time) is that the Kingdom of God is the resurrection of the people starting with Jesus Christ. Mind you, resurrection does not mean resuscitation. Resurrection, as this mentor described and most scholars agree, is a transformation of a more complete faith in YHWH.

Next, for the love of Sleipnir stop taking Prophetic books matching them with the Gospels. Because one prophetic book said this doesn't mean that the prophecy is correct, the evangelists who wrote the damn Gospels take the imagery and sayings from Prophetic books as well as other Old Testament texts to emphasize their points/describe who Jesus is (a writing technique called midrash), not to prove the Prophetic books right on said "prediction."

[Xsora5X]

its real according to the bible. we will just have to have faith and wait till the end comes. i am a christian so i do believe in it.

[wu tang goku]

[Phoenix]

All of this is to prove to Satan and us humans who obviously do not get it, that we cannot do well without God. All of our suffering is yes, to prove a point. That point is that we cannot do it alone. As I said, time is need to prove ANY point. I'm sorry if you see it any other way. In fact, there is no other way. God is perfect in all his ways and activity. If you have the wrong the view with him then it is you with the problem. Besides, God promises to fix all of Satan's mess through Crist's Messianic Kingdom, so we on God's side wins.

The bold part is all I needed to know. Kinda proves the whole "cosmic chess" thing right. God and Satan are chess players, the world is their pieces.

If you have such a problem with being raped and having aids so much, take up the "strong sheild of faith" and turn to God and correct teachings about him. You'' do nothing but benifit.

The victim can take up the strong shield of faith to protect himself from murder and rape? Damn, we've been going about this crime thing the wrong way.

[Einon SAMA]

You do not seem to understand the importance of the point being made. It is a point being made against people like you, Pho.

We need God's guidance and rulership. Yet you don't want it. In a since, those with that view deserve what they get. I don't see why you think him proving that point is so bad. Its the ONLY option he had or his actions would have been questioned.

If he had've destroyed Adam and Eve and started from scratch, what would that say about him to the Angels? If he had've given them a second chance and not kept his word, what would that have said about his position?

The whole reason Eve ate the forbidden fruit is because she wanted to rule herself. Okay..she's done that now we are seeing what has become of that. Really, what else do you want?

[Phoenix]

You do not seem to understand the importance of the point being made. It is a point being made against people like you, Pho.

And that's all swell and good, for a king that needs to hold a crumbling kingdom together. Not for a God, and definitely not for a teacher you compare him too. Teachers don't pull this kind of shit ever. Unless they want a vacation or something.

We need God's guidance and rulership. Yet you don't want it. In a since, those with that view deserve what they get. I don't see why you think him proving that point is so bad.

Damn, man.

Its the ONLY option he had or his actions would have been questioned.

You make him and his angels sounds so.... terribly human. God is out of choices, and what would his followers say? Just like the kings of old.

If he had've destroyed Adam and Eve and started from scratch, what would that say about him to the Angels?

That he was a prick. Rightfully, too.

If he had've given them a second chance and not kept his word, what would that have said about his position?

He should've thought of that before issuing an ultimatum to a 1-day old man. If he's God, even if you argue that man has free will, he should've foreseen what his creations would do. He chose to do nothing, therefore, he puts himself between a rock and a hard place.

The whole reason Eve ate the forbidden fruit is because she wanted to rule herself. Okay..she's done that now we are seeing what has become of that. Really, what else do you want?

What has become of that? Really, you're such a pessimist. We have our dark side, to be sure, but human civilization is really something quite impressive. Aside from the physical stuff (such as buildings, cars and whatnot), humans have invented philosophy, science, psychology and other branches) geared to the discovery of the truth and how this can be best applied to better our species. Is that so evil of us? We have come from from being slave-owners to recognizing full rights for any and all humans beings (most of us, anyway). Women have been recognized equality (compare to OT). Homosexuals have been granted rights (don't really need to say anything). Even if we don't have Adam and Eve's idyllic paradise, we have things they certainly didn't. So why do you see our reality so horribly twisted and irredeemable?


However, let's pretend you're right about God's pov. Let's say he's testing to see if we could rule ourselves. What would we need to do to prove that we can?

[Einon SAMA]

And that's all swell and good, for a king that needs to hold a crumbling kingdom together. Not for a God, and definitely not for a teacher you compare him too. Teachers don't pull this kind of shit ever. Unless they want a vacation or something.

His kingdom when complete will be a perfect one. One with subjects do not question their king, and where everyone lives in peace. Heck, even death will be done away with. It is by no means a crumbling kingdom.

You make him and his angels sounds so.... terribly human. God is out of choices, and what would his followers say? Just like the kings of old.

The Bible says God is perfect in his ways. This means he is a god of Justice. His choice in the matter of deciplining Adam and Even was only right and fair. They knew the consequences. So it is their OWN fault. Stop placing the blame on God. As for his angels, they are like humans in the way that they are free moral agents. They have free will just as we do. Why, a third of them followed and rebelled alongside Satan. So yes, considering them and their thoughts is what he rightfully did.

That he was a prick. Rightfully, too.

And instead, the Angels in all throughout the Holy Book are praising God for his acts, claiming his ways are perfect and just and loving, and that he alone deserves the worship of ALL creation. He did create them btw.

He should've thought of that before issuing an ultimatum to a 1-day old man. If he's God, even if you argue that man has free will, he should've foreseen what his creations would do. He chose to do nothing, therefore, he puts himself between a rock and a hard place.

First of all, Adam was no young babe. He had the time to have a relationship with God, no his righteous ways and rules, name ALL of the animals. By no means was Adam "1 day old". Also, God does not see what his creation will do. That defeats the whole purpose. I think thats a problem that you and MANY MANY other athiest have. The believe God to have things predestine or to know ever thing that is going to happen to the last detail. While that is certainly not beyond his powers (see Prophecies), he CHOOSES not to. Proverbs 27:11- "Be wise, my son and make my heart rejoice.." The God may be Almighty and does have certain things predestined, such as the destruction of the wicked, the promised paradise and the annihilation of Satan, there is nothing to imply he see everything we do on an individual basis so PLEASE STOP assuming he does. He did NOT create Adam and Eve knowing that they would've sinned.

What has become of that? Really, you're such a pessimist. We have our dark side, to be sure, but human civilization is really something quite impressive. Aside from the physical stuff (such as buildings, cars and whatnot), humans have invented philosophy, science, psychology and other branches) geared to the discovery of the truth and how this can be best applied to better our species. Is that so evil of us? We have come from from being slave-owners to recognizing full rights for any and all humans beings (most of us, anyway). Women have been recognized equality (compare to OT). Homosexuals have been granted rights (don't really need to say anything). Even if we don't have Adam and Eve's idyllic paradise, we have things they certainly didn't. So why do you see our reality so horribly twisted and irredeemable?

Sure. Mankind has come along way, but also shows that it is impossible to get along as a whole. Just look at all of those things that you meantioned. Yes, great and wonderful accomplishments of men, but imagine that on a perfect level, which is what God's original and current plan is. So imagine all of those you meantioned...without the war, famine, disease and death.

However, let's pretend you're right about God's pov. Let's say he's testing to see if we could rule ourselves. What would we need to do to prove that we can?

The sermon on the mount is what we need.

[Hollow Bastion]

So God didn't create humans with the intent of humans having free will? Or did he have said intent but failed to have foresight enough to realize free will means the ability to go against his own will?

[Phoenix]

His kingdom when complete will be a perfect one. One with subjects do not question their king, and where everyone lives in peace. Heck, even death will be done away with. It is by no means a crumbling kingdom.

Perfect beings with perfect kingdoms have no need whatsoever to prove points to anyone. They're perfect like that.

The Bible says God is perfect in his ways. This means he is a god of Justice. His choice in the matter of deciplining Adam and Even was only right and fair. They knew the consequences. So it is their OWN fault. Stop placing the blame on God. As for his angels, they are like humans in the way that they are free moral agents. They have free will just as we do. Why, a third of them followed and rebelled alongside Satan. So yes, considering them and their thoughts is what he rightfully did.

Is it right and fair because God did it, or does the idea of right and fair exist outside of God?

Also, I didn't blame God here, I said that the way you depict him just makes him sound like a human king. He's doing things humans would do because they must protect their power. God would explain things to his angels, and is his explanation is perfect (which it should be since he's perfect), the loyal angels would have no trouble understanding.

And instead, the Angels in all throughout the Holy Book are praising God for his acts, claiming his ways are perfect and just and loving, and that he alone deserves the worship of ALL creation. He did create them btw.

Just like every other human king, he has his loyalists which speak only praises for him, and the rebels who speak only ill of him. I fail to see anything divine here.

First of all, Adam was no young babe. He had the time to have a relationship with God, no his righteous ways and rules, name ALL of the animals.

Did he name the platypus? I thought not. He named like 5 indigenous animals, then called it a day.

By no means was Adam "1 day old". Also, God does not see what his creation will do.

Like I said, this requires no omniscience, only common sense. Like HB just said, if God gave his creations free will, then it stands to follow there's a very strong chance they go against his will, especially if you put the evil tree of evil in the middle of the Garden.

That defeats the whole purpose. I think thats a problem that you and MANY MANY other athiest have. The believe God to have things predestine or to know ever thing that is going to happen to the last detail.

Uh, no. I merely adopt the pov of God being omniscient if I'm debating someone who believes that. If I'm debating you, I adopt the pov of God thinking "Gee, a third of my angels rebelled, maybe these new kids on the block could too. Especially if the evil tree of evil is there".

While that is certainly not beyond his powers (see Prophecies), he CHOOSES not to. Proverbs 27:11- "Be wise, my son and make my heart rejoice.." The God may be Almighty and does have certain things predestined, such as the destruction of the wicked, the promised paradise and the annihilation of Satan, there is nothing to imply he see everything we do on an individual basis so PLEASE STOP assuming he does. He did NOT create Adam and Eve knowing that they would've sinned.

And that's your belief. Others believe that absolute perfection means perfect knowledge too. Others believe that he is not omnipotent at all, just very powerful. Others believe he made the Earth then left the Universe.

So what? I believe nothing of what I have said in this debate because I am adopting a pov that is not my own. My pov is that the divine is a combination of mankind's ignorance in the ancient ages com and a human's natural fear of death, loneliness and hopelessness.

the fact of the matter is that someone with an IQ of 80 knows that if you put rat poison on your 5-year old's room and tell him "Don't touch the rat poison", the kid will touch the rat poison. This is known as curiosity, a trait that God must've knowingly created since you say he created humanity. If God creates curiosity in humans then puts the Gian Tree of Evil Perdition all tasty like in the middle of the Garden, tells them not to eat it, and then allows a talking serpent in the perfect Garden so it can seduce his newborns, without even thinking of the very strong possibility that they might just eat the rotten apple, then damn, he's not as smart as we thought.

Sure. Mankind has come along way, but also shows that it is impossible to get along as a whole. Just look at all of those things that you meantioned. Yes, great and wonderful accomplishments of men, but imagine that on a perfect level, which is what God's original and current plan is. So imagine all of those you meantioned...without the war, famine, disease and death.

Sorry, all are necessary. You cannot enjoy food with hunger. You cannot appreciate peace for what it is without war. You cannot revel in your good health without disease. And life would most certainly be meaningless without death.

We're not perfect, and thank goodness. Perfection means that there is nothing left to change, nothing left to improve. If there was a God, I could understand perfectly why the Universe is so imperfect: an immortal, unchanging, perfect existence sounds very sad and very lonely.

The sermon on the mount is what we need.

But of course, why do I ask? You want us to meet God's standards, not our own. Going with your analogy of the teacher, the students no longer have to take the ex-teacher's test.

[Einon SAMA]

Perfect beings with perfect kingdoms have no need whatsoever to prove points to anyone. They're perfect like that.

God himself has always been perfect, but that doesn't mean his kingdom was, no. Depends on the people around you (Satan and his angels). Jesus said, "Let your will BE done in HEAVEN..." meaning that it wasn't currently.

Is it right and fair because God did it, or does the idea of right and fair exist outside of God?

Also, I didn't blame God here, I said that the way you depict him just makes him sound like a human king. He's doing things humans would do because they must protect their power. God would explain things to his angels, and is his explanation is perfect (which it should be since he's perfect), the loyal angels would have no trouble understanding.

No, it is right and fair because it is. Not because he is doing it. He upholds his own standards and laws. Do not throw murder in it because the life belongs to him in the first place.

Like I said, this requires no omniscience, only common sense. Like HB just said, if God gave his creations free will, then it stands to follow there's a very strong chance they go against his will, especially if you put the evil tree of evil in the middle of the Garden.

Why can't you people understand this? God did the equivelent of giving birth when making humans and angels. NOT ROBOTS. Ofcourse they have the ability to go againt your will just like any child COULD. And it is NOT, MOST DEFINATELY NOT inevitable for a child to be disobedient and touch the rat poison.

If God creates curiosity in humans then puts the Gian Tree of Evil Perdition all tasty like in the middle of the Garden, tells them not to eat it, and then allows a talking serpent in the perfect Garden so it can seduce his newborns, without even thinking of the very strong possibility that they might just eat the rotten apple, then damn, he's not as smart as we thought.

Or maybe Satan was just smart in "decieving" the curious woman. He didn't just tell her. He lied and was obviously cunning about it.

Sorry, all are necessary. You cannot enjoy food with hunger. You cannot appreciate peace for what it is without war. You cannot revel in your good health without disease. And life would most certainly be meaningless without death.

Opinion. A philisophical one at that. Its a beautiful passage, but you, my friend cannot possibly imagine perfection. You only think you can.

[Phoenix]

God himself has always been perfect, but that doesn't mean his kingdom was, no. Depends on the people around you (Satan and his angels). Jesus said, "Let your will BE done in HEAVEN..." meaning that it wasn't currently.

Then I amend my comment. Perfect beings, period, have no need to prove anything to anyone.

No, it is right and fair because it is. Not because he is doing it. He upholds his own standards and laws.

Ah, so the idea of right and fair precedes God?

Do not throw murder in it because the life belongs to him in the first place.

lol humans are toys. And don't tell me you don't think we are when referring to God.

Why can't you people understand this? God did the equivelent of giving birth when making humans and angels. NOT ROBOTS. Ofcourse they have the ability to go againt your will just like any child COULD. And it is NOT, MOST DEFINATELY NOT inevitable for a child to be disobedient and touch the rat poison.

Why can't you people understand that whenever we see "free will something", robots is not the logical conclusion? My comment was that God would obviously be smart enough to understand his own creations. I see robots nowhere in this.

Also, nothing is inevitable, but it is highly likely the child will play with the rat poison. I dare you to tell me it isn't.

Or maybe Satan was just smart in "decieving" the curious woman. He didn't just tell her. He lied and was obviously cunning about it.

He lied? I don't remember this. I remember the talking serpent syaing that eating from the tree would give them knowledge of good and evil and, in this sense, making them like God. This wasn't a lie, they did indeed gain knowledge of good and evil.

However, this is all irrelevant. God created the serpent, Adam and Eve. He understood each of them perfectly, thus knew all the lilely possibilities in the Garden. He set them up to fall.

Opinion. A philisophical one at that. Its a beautiful passage, but you, my friend cannot possibly imagine perfection. You only think you can.

Neither can you, for that matter. However, I am merely using experience. Humans cannot truly appreciate anything if they have never lacked it. Someone from a poor family appreciates money and food far more than someone from a rich one does. People who fight for their rights and win them treasure them far more than the ones in the next generation, which takes them for granted.

I am using human nature. So what are you using to justify that a never ending peace would not drive humans insane?

[Gavin]

Originally Posted by Hollow Bastion

So God didn't create humans with the intent of humans having free will?

Humans without, free will? What a way to spoil it, wouldn't you say HB? I mean, living a life of a perfect order, well I guess I could contradict this and state; We wouldn't know any better would we?

[Einon SAMA]

Then I amend my comment. Perfect beings, period, have no need to prove anything to anyone.

When dealing with imperfect beings...they do. Besides, how would you know? You ever met a perfect person? God doesn't NEED to prove anything, he simply desires to out of love. He wants to show that man cannot rule man. And showing it he is.

Ah, so the idea of right and fair precedes God?

Is God capaple of being impartial or not fair? I imagine so, but the Bible says he's not. He abides by his own rules.

lol humans are toys. And don't tell me you don't think we are when referring to God.

Quite frankly if you don't understand God's purpose then you'll have an idiotic view like that. If you mean we are mere dust in comparrison, then sure.

Why can't you people understand that whenever we see "free will something", robots is not the logical conclusion? My comment was that God would obviously be smart enough to understand his own creations. I see robots nowhere in this.

Also, nothing is inevitable, but it is highly likely the child will play with the rat poison. I dare you to tell me it isn't.

It doesn't have to be unlikley. Simply put, if you are obedient,you wont ...disobey. Adam and Eve were not curious, they were selfish.
And quit comparring a child to Adam and Eve. They weren't children. They were grown people who understood things. They knew what death was and were told the concequences and understood. They were not as children today are, so stop that comparison as well.

[Phoenix]

When dealing with imperfect beings...they do. Besides, how would you know? You ever met a perfect person? God doesn't NEED to prove anything, he simply desires to out of love. He wants to show that man cannot rule man. And showing it he is.

Again, I do not know, but neither do you, and again, I am using logic. How often do you see intellectuals trying to debate philosophy with factory workers? And that's a bad analogy, since they're both human; a God trying to prove a point to a human using human suffering as an example is just petty.

Is God capaple of being impartial or not fair? I imagine so, but the Bible says he's not. He abides by his own rules.

Ah, but that's not what I asked. I asked if the idea of justice precedes God, or if God created the idea of justice.

Quite frankly if you don't understand God's purpose then you'll have an idiotic view like that. If you mean we are mere dust that has emotions, opinions, thoughts and ideas, with other dust particles it loves and cares for, with a sense of self-worth in its dustiness in comparrison, then sure.

Fix't.

The analogy doesn't apply because dust cannot think. In my fixed example, then no, God doesn't have a right to toy with the lives of his dust particles. I'd go even further and say it's his responsibility those dust particles come to no harm, like a parent would do, because he made them. If he doesn't help the dust particles, then he's a deadbeat dad, and like all deadbeat dads, forsakes all rights he had with said particles.

To summarize, toying with self-aware lives makes you a prick.

It doesn't have to be unlikley. Simply put, if you are obedient,you wont ...disobey. Adam and Eve were not curious, they were selfish.

And who created them selfish?

And quit comparring a child to Adam and Eve. They weren't children. They were grown people who understood things. They knew what death was and were told the concequences and understood. They were not as children today are, so stop that comparison as well.

You see, I'm no expert in God, but I do understand humans quite a bit, so in my experience, if you've never seen death, you don't know what it is. And seeing as how eating from the Mighty Tree of Badness gave them knowledge, the logical conclusion was that they were indeed ignorant as children before eating from it.

A daddy tells his kid "don't touch the rat poison". Kid touches the rat poison. Logical conclusion: kick him out of the house.

[Vanguard XIII]

WE'LL GET THERE WHEN WE GET THERE.