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Sorry I didn't provide literature, I'll try to do that tomorrow(not because there is none, but because it's gonna take me a few minutes to go thru everything to try and find something that you could deem/approve as credible or without having a Christian influence)
And no, I don't act like every common idea has to be true, I actually don't think like that at all and think that the majority of the world is misinformed on a lot of things.
This thread is called I hate religion, but love Jesus. I agree with his philosophy and teachings, and at the same time I do not like religion and all the BullShit that Christianity has in it or done. Don't treat me as some Christian zealot, when in fact that's no where near who I am or how I feel.
Last edited by Cosmic+Amarna; March 2, 2012 at 02:36 AM.
Wow, still not relevant to anything at all. You really just proved my point, no one believed this stuff until people who did believe this stuff came into power.Well, you're totally wrong about that. Rome(people in power) did not adopt/approve Christianity for years and years until after he died. Constantine declared Christianity a few hundred years after he(Jesus) died. Before that we have the Essenes, the Gnostics, and other unofficial Christian groups(who were persecuted), for at least two hundred years.
Listen to this song. It's a pretty good argument, I think anyway. Tell me what you guys think. I also think this is a good response to all of the stuff you guys bring up. Most of this has become overly opinionated. People have no idea what they are talking about in certain situations, so why not hear an argument from somebody who knows what he is talking about. This is guy is in the Word, and his music is very scripture oriented.
Haha, I would give you links if they had internet in the first several centuries. However, due to the lack of computer development the had to use good ol' pen and paper. But yeah! It is a historical fact! You can find it in secular and religious writings of the time. Examples include the famous secular historian, Flavius Josephus. He writes,
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
The even more famous Pliny the Younger criticizes the Christian faith at the time in a more extensive manner claiming that Jesus and His followers were excessively superstitious. There are many, many more secular writings that state that Jesus Christ was a real, righteous person who had followers. However, after Christ's ascension into heaven his followers scattered across Asia and Europe to spread the word. The Roman Government persecuted them heavily. Still their numbers grew. Cornelius Tacitus (Distinguished Roman Historian) writes,
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."
It wasn't until A.D. 300 that Constantine made Christianity the official Roman religion. Suddenly, the already massive Christianity exploded in the political circles. If the Emperor was friendly to anyone Christian, well, suddenly the idea didn't seem so crazy. 380 AD is when Theodosius outlawed all other religions and suddenly everyone thought Christianity looked pretty good. This probably harmed the Church more than helped it because of all the false believers and fake christians who weren't really there for a relationship with God. I could continue ranting and raving for pages, but I have a feeling you are skimming this at best and I don't blame you. :P There are other archaeological sources that testify that a man named Jesus Christ who claimed to save a person from death lived in the 1 century, but I'll need to dig out my research from the mess of sheet music and video games under my bed.
Now whether he was a wizard, a crazy man, a good prophet, or really the son of God requires a deeper delve into history and his biography.
P.S. If you don't believe anything before the birth of America to be legitimate, then I will have a hard time finding some concrete evidence for you. :P
P.S.S. @Cosmic+Amarna I respect you for your open-mindedness and critical thought. You sure are taking a hit from a lot of users who just post once and leave. Kudos kupo! xD
That isn't spreading "like wildfire." That is people believing it and then it spreading once powerful people started with it. Maybe I am still misreading what you mean, but none of it seems to imply it spreading rapidly before people in power forced it on others.Yes, directly responding to you is irrelevant. And no, you completely misread what I just wrote then. Rome was the one who was in power, and they shit all over the middle eastern religions for 300 years until Constantine. Meaning, that for 300 years prior to becoming popular and approved by those in power, the Christian philosophy existed amongst the non roman population.
So, your information is pulled from where? Where are these texts you speak of documented? Are you just pulling them out of your ass? Or do you not understand what I meant by links?Haha, I would give you links if they had internet in the first several centuries.
and no, you can't use the bible as a source
also, you realize that theodosius made it the official religion, right?
Non-Biblical Pagan(Roman/Greek) Witnesses and References
Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
Lucian of Samosata (115-200 A.D.)
Non-Biblical Jewish Witnesses and References
Jewish Talmud (400-700AD)
The Toledot Yeshu (1000AD)
The majority of modern day scholars even believe that Jesus actually existed. Of course there are some who dispute his existence, but the majority of scholars denote this theory of non-existence and accredit much more evidence in the favor of an actual historical Jesus.
Islam and Judaism tell us that Jesus existed. Romans and Greeks tell us that Jesus existed.
@brokenheartless- Thank you for posting that^and your other comment. I will always be open-minded, since being narrow and closed minded will always result in a lack of understanding. God knows and contains everything, and if we humans ever wish to comprehend It in the slightest, we must maintain an open mind.
But this is all getting away from the main point of the thread though. Which is, that there is a difference between spirituality and religion.
Jesus Christ was spiritual and not religious. He disagreed wholeheartedly with religion and promoted spirituality, which unfortunately has become altered since his death. Jesus' family even wrote to the apostles and others after his death complaining about how the people have altered his message and teachings.
"The kingdom of heaven is within you, and it is all around you"-Jesus Christ speaking about heaven
"Lift a stone and I am there, split a piece of wood and I am there"-Jesus Christ speaking about God
"If you bring forth what is within you, then you will be saved. If you do not, then you will die"-Jesus Christ speaking about Spirit
"It is a marvel that the body came into being because of Spirit. It is the marvel of marvels that Spirit came into being because of the body"-Jesus Christ speaking on Spirit
Jesus didn't preach 'come and worship me', rather he preached 'come and be like me, for my yoga(way) is an easy one'
In 313, Constantine and Licinius issued the Edict of Milan legalizing Christian worship. The emperor became a great patron of the Church and set a precedent for the position of the Christian emperor within the Church and the notion of orthodoxy, Christendom, and ecumenical councils that would be followed for centuries as the State church of the Roman Empire. He is revered as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Church for his example as a "Christian monarch."
@Bictorious - spreading like wildfire overnight was a figure of speech, referring to how Christian or Jesus' philosophy and teachings spread rapidly thru out the middle eastern region and gained popularity. There is plenty historical evidence for that, and I'm talking about before Rome(those in power) adopted it.
"Meaning, that for 300 years prior to becoming popular and approved by those in power, the Christian philosophy existed amongst the non roman population."
Last edited by Cosmic+Amarna; March 3, 2012 at 02:35 AM.
you missed his point@Bictorious - spreading like wildfire overnight was a figure of speech, referring to how Christian or Jesus' philosophy and teachings spread rapidly and gained popularity. There is plenty historical evidence for that, so...
it spreading and gaining popularity doesn't give it credibility
http://faculty.samford.edu/~medebow/Timeline.htmlIn all of the history books I've used in school, not one has mentioned that a Roman emperor adopted christianity as his countrie's religion. So the same could be said for you as well.
I'm not sure why you wouldn't have been told about this in school, I learned about it in like 8th grade.
Last edited by HadesDragon; March 3, 2012 at 02:57 AM.
if you are addressing me, i wasn't talking about the credibility of jesus' existence, i was talking about the credibility of the idea that it somehow spreading like wildfire means that christianity must be true in some sense, which if i'm not mistaken was more or less the conversation you and victor were having.That being the credibility.
That's like saying how the majority Germany adopted the Nazi view/philosophy, but oh there was no such thing as Nazis or Hitler
by the way
1. that has nothing to do with celtis' point because he didn't deny a historical jesus, what he was questioning was if he really was the messiah/son of god/etc.FYI, there is a ton of evidence supporting that a man named Jesus lived in the first century and claimed to save people from death. If you need research sources or a push in the right direction just ask! But please don't parrot false claims about history. This is a thread where we are suppose to fool people into thinking we are smart. ;P
2. as far as i know there were a lot of "messiahs" during that time, jesus was just one of many, so celtis is right in the sense that jesus is not unique.
Last edited by HadesDragon; March 3, 2012 at 03:01 AM.