About the whole 'eternal creator' thing...

[Orion]

This is something that I realised indirectly a few weeks ago, and have been thinking over more in recent days, and I've come to realise the inherent nonsensical nature of the entire concept of an eternal creator-god. I'd go so far as to say it's even more nonsensical than saying the universe itself is eternal.

I think when religious people say or believe their ultimate deity is eternal, they fail to realise the sheer scope of that. This divine being has been around longer than any amount of time that could ever be comprehended by mankind. They have been around forever before they supposedly made the world. And then, supposedly, they made the universe with the Earth as its crown jewel.

But this very concept is one astoundingly hard to believe: 'He' had been sitting around doing nothing for an eternity! What was he doing during this time, thinking of what to make? But he's perfect, he'd know whatever he wanted to make in an instant. The very notion that he just sits around forever before anything is entirely nonsense, and is so stupid that not even the 'you don't understand the mind of god' card can be pulled to sufficiently refute the absurdity of this notion.

And then you have the other possibility, that he's been creating things during that time. But that 'time' has been an eternity, meaning he's made an infinite amount of things, he's given rise to life enough times to literally be uncountable. And here comes another shortcoming of the 'eternal deity' belief. If you subscribe to the belief that God was doing stuff before us for an eternity, then he had literally no reason whatsoever to care for us, and we would certainly not be the main focus - if looked upon at all after our creation - by this god. We would be just one creation among an eternal, infinite sea of creations, and God would simply not care for us. It's not a matter of him forgetting about us - his memory is theoretically perfect - we'd just be an infinitesimally tiny and insignificant flash in that grand memory, and there is no reason that we should be seen as special by him.

Just wanted to put these ideas forth and see what people's responses are to this. I'm primarily going by the two main religions I know the most about - Christianity and Islam - but the above could be applied to any eternal creator god belief. In summary, god sitting around forever before us not doing anything is pure crap, and we are simply in no way special to him if he was doing stuff before us.

[Box_ghost]

I choose to think of the omniverse itself as 'God' somtimes
I also thin its possible that 'God' who, may or may not have a [humanoid] form, is the grand architect of all things, including the omniverse.
And the deities of the religions are simply heralds acting on his behalf.

[Memory Master]

This is something that I realised indirectly a few weeks ago, and have been thinking over more in recent days, and I've come to realise the inherent nonsensical nature of the entire concept of an eternal creator-god. I'd go so far as to say it's even more nonsensical than saying the universe itself is eternal.

I think when religious people say or believe their ultimate deity is eternal, they fail to realise the sheer scope of that. This divine being has been around longer than any amount of time that could ever be comprehended by mankind. They have been around forever before they supposedly made the world. And then, supposedly, they made the universe with the Earth as its crown jewel.

But this very concept is one astoundingly hard to believe: 'He' had been sitting around doing nothing for an eternity! What was he doing during this time, thinking of what to make? But he's perfect, he'd know whatever he wanted to make in an instant. The very notion that he just sits around forever before anything is entirely nonsense, and is so stupid that not even the 'you don't understand the mind of god' card can be pulled to sufficiently refute the absurdity of this notion.

And then you have the other possibility, that he's been creating things during that time. But that 'time' has been an eternity, meaning he's made an infinite amount of things, he's given rise to life enough times to literally be uncountable. And here comes another shortcoming of the 'eternal deity' belief. If you subscribe to the belief that God was doing stuff before us for an eternity, then he had literally no reason whatsoever to care for us, and we would certainly not be the main focus - if looked upon at all after our creation - by this god. We would be just one creation among an eternal, infinite sea of creations, and God would simply not care for us. It's not a matter of him forgetting about us - his memory is theoretically perfect - we'd just be an infinitesimally tiny and insignificant flash in that grand memory, and there is no reason that we should be seen as special by him.

Just wanted to put these ideas forth and see what people's responses are to this. I'm primarily going by the two main religions I know the most about - Christianity and Islam - but the above could be applied to any eternal creator god belief. In summary, god sitting around forever before us not doing anything is pure crap, and we are simply in no way special to him if he was doing stuff before us.

There really easy explanations:

1. We don't know what God was doing before he created the universe and to be honest, it doesn't matter. Whatever God was doing, it was his business. No one has ever claimed he was just doing nothing, but no one what he was doing.

2. Why would God create us? Why would he care about us? Simple, God's ultimate nature is love. Mercy, love, comfort, compassion, all things good. God is love and his love is far far far far far beyond human comprehenssion of love. He loves all people no matter how small, from conception to death through to eternity. It was this very love that is why he wanted to save us, by sending himself, the son in human flesh and dying for our faults, so that we may have a way back to God. God's love surpasses all understanding, it's because of love he cares for us. He doesn't have to, but he does anyway, that's why people worship him, his immense love.

God is a being humans will never fully understand. Sure we have some knowledge of him, some of his nature has been revealed, we know he's enternal, all the omni stuff, we know his love is immense, through Jesus we know he's a triunity being like us though in his case he's triunity nature is far more complex and thus we can't truly grasp it. The things we don't understand about God and his plan, we will understand much better in the next life. There the ones who have been redeemed by Christ shall be made liken unto christ, meaning we will have new bodies, a new way of thinking, our ability to understand will far surpass our human limitations, we will understand things so much better, understand God better and finally be with our creator and our father. Until then, his followers must continue to trust and obey and do as he commands on this Earth until the day comes we live with God.

[Orion]

Simple, God's ultimate nature is love. Mercy, love, comfort, compassion, all things good. God is love and his love is far far far far far beyond human comprehenssion of love. He loves all people no matter how small, from conception to death through to eternity. It was this very love that is why he wanted to save us, by sending himself, the son in human flesh and dying for our faults, so that we may have a way back to God. God's love surpasses all understanding, it's because of love he cares for us. He doesn't have to, but he does anyway, that's why people worship him, his immense love.

That's not the biggest load of crap I ever heard. Nope.

God is a being humans will never fully understand.

This is a discussion, don't bring this un-validatable thing to the table if you have no decent argument of your own to rely on.

[Cheaken]

I'm sorry Memory Master, but I don't think your God can possibly be love or mercy. The amount of pain, torture and so many horrendous things that you couldn't even dream of, that so many people and other animals have had to endure, it just can't work.

[Memory Master]

That's not the biggest load of crap I ever heard. Nope.This is a discussion, don't bring this un-validatable thing to the table if you have no decent argument of your own to rely on.

There's no point in trying to describe sight to one who is blind. I pray you experience the truth for yourself, maybe then you'll understand.

I'm sorry Memory Master, but I don't think your God can possibly be love or mercy. The amount of pain, torture and so many horrendous things that you couldn't even dream of, that so many people and other animals have had to endure, it just can't work.

Okay first off, this world is a sinful and imperfect world, as such bad things happen. Also alot of bad things are caused by people. Now why doesn't God stop them or why doesn't God make everyone do good, because then God would be a tyrrant, a dictator, that's not true love. God gives people free will and a choice, he gives them freedom, they must choose their fate and their actions, and face the results of that choice or action.

But God does not leave HIS people without comfort. HIS people can turn to him and pray and I have seen first hand prayer work many miracles.

That's not to say life will be easy, life is always going to be hard in a sinful and imperfect world brought about by human rebellion to God. But those who rely on God will find peace and comfort that literally surpasses all understanding.

[HadesDragon]

God is a being humans will never fully understand.

Isn't it a little dangerous to put so much trust in something so mysterious?

[Oberon]

It's funny too, because as science became more advanced and our understanding of the cosmos evolved, God somehow got further and further away in the heavens (clouds>space>outside the universe>etc)

There's no point in trying to describe sight to one who is blind. I pray you experience the truth for yourself, maybe then you'll understand.

This coming from someone who has faith in an all-powerful being that no one has ever seen.

[Professor Ven]

This just in: sin doesn't exist;


And I like the God that will turn people to salt/send down meteors. Much more liable to be a good devoutee if I know lightning will bonking strike me if I do something immoral. 8(


The eternal creator is something, in itself, created by elders (priests) of a bygone time when a warlord could declare "the sun is my father and the moon my mother and you are now all my underlings." Religion is an age-old method to giving names and faces to things, back then, people didn't understand, as well as (in later centuries) controlling and culling the populace of believers.




And then came Science.

[Forever Atlas]

I will just sum up my thoughts in brief with your very own statements.

This divine being has been around longer than any amount of time that could ever be comprehended by mankind.

But this very concept is one astoundingly hard to believe:

Just because something is incomprehensible does not make it impossible.

Try and teach a dog physics and see if it understands. Just because our brains can not comprehend something does not mean that it should immediately be ruled out.

Sometimes humans think too much of themselves as if we know it all or WILL know it all. We cant, we wont.


Also, time is relative. For us, it is simply a measurement of our existence and the motions of the universe.

[Pirates]

There really easy explanations:

2. Why would God create us? Why would he care about us? Simple, God's ultimate nature is love. Mercy, love, comfort, compassion, all things good. God is love and his love is far far far far far beyond human comprehenssion of love. He loves all people no matter how small, from conception to death through to eternity.

Isnt hell eternal seperation from god? He pretty much leaves you to suffer. I dont think this fits in with love and mercy.

It was this very love that is why he wanted to save us, by sending himself, the son in human flesh and dying for our faults, so that we may have a way back to God. God's love surpasses all understanding, it's because of love he cares for us. He doesn't have to, but he does anyway, that's why people worship him, his immense love.

Save us from what?
He created us.
You dont send your child to live in Ethiopia so that, one day, you might come to save them from horrible poverty.
Do it right from the start.

God is a being humans will never fully understand. Sure we have some speculation of him, some of his nature has been revealed, we know he's enternal, all the omni stuff, we know his love is immense, through Jesus we know he's a triunity being like us though in his case he's triunity nature is far more complex and thus we can't truly grasp it. The things we don't understand about God and his plan, we will understand much better in the next life. There the ones who have been redeemed by Christ shall be made liken unto christ, meaning we will have new bodies, a new way of thinking, our ability to understand will far surpass our human limitations, we will understand things so much better, understand God better and finally be with our creator and our father. Until then, his followers must continue to trust and obey and do as he commands on this Earth until the day comes we live with God.[/QUOTE]
fix'd

Who told you all this? Your dad?
I forget when god said all this. Maybe a guy named Jesus did at one stage, but he is just a guy. There is nothing substancial to suggest he was anything other than that.
I am just a man, so I should have just the same amount of worth to you than jesus.

There's no point in trying to describe sight to one who is blind. I pray you experience the truth for yourself, maybe then you'll understand.

While we are at it, I will start swearing at a street lamp. Then we can both be doing pointless activities at the same time.
Seriously though, if god knows everything, prayer is obcelete. Who are you to say what he does isnt enough. If he has a plan, he has given all of us the tools we need to follow it. Asking for something more would probably be a bad idea.
also, Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer - New York Times

"
Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.
And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested. "
Please, for the love of god, dont pray for me!

Okay first off, this world is a sinful and imperfect world, as such bad things happen. Also alot of bad things are caused by people. Now why doesn't God stop them or why doesn't God make everyone do good, because then God would be a tyrrant, a dictator, that's not true love. God gives people free will and a choice, he gives them freedom, they must choose their fate and their actions, and face the results of that choice or action.

1)Wouldnt be if he didnt create it as such. If he made us perfect to start, imperfection wouldnt exist.
2) Or, the natural universe gives us these gifts and you are giving credit to the wrong person.

But God does not leave HIS people without comfort. HIS people can turn to him and pray and I have seen first hand prayer work many miracles.

Hell is eternal seperation from god.

That's not to say life will be easy, life is always going to be hard in a sinful and imperfect world brought about by human rebellion to God. But those who rely on God will find peace and comfort that literally surpasses all understanding.

All of those things could probably be achieved without god.

[QUOTE=Forever Atlas;5534208]I will just sum up my thoughts in brief with your very own statements.



Just because something is incomprehensible does not make it impossible.[quote]

Right, just makes it illogical to devote your life to it, pretending you understand it at all.

Try and teach a dog physics and see if it understands. Just because our brains can not comprehend something does not mean that it should immediately be ruled out.

A god should also not expect any dog to believe in physics that it cant understand. can the same be said about humans?

Also, time is relative. For us, it is simply a measurement of our existence and the motions of the universe.

are you suggesting there is a place in the universe where time doesnt flow?

[Ehres]

You sound like you assume time exists at all.

[Kaffikjelen]

The eternal creator is something, in itself, created by elders (priests) of a bygone time when a warlord could declare "the sun is my father and the moon my mother and you are now all my underlings." Religion is an age-old method to giving names and faces to things, back then, people didn't understand, as well as (in later centuries) controlling and culling the populace of believers.

Sure, whatever you say. You know everything, and what you just wrote doesn't beg the question in the slightest.

And then came Science.

Science is not incompatible with religion. Just look at Copernicus, Galilei, Newton, &c. In fact, science is useless unless God exists. It requires uniformity in nature. You don't have that without God.

[LongLiveLife]

Galilei

Whom the Church condemned for science.

science is useless unless God exists

It requires uniformity in nature.

You don't have that without God.

Not in the slightest. You're obviously quite unfamiliar with the methods and explanations science puts forth.

Science is not incompatible with religion.

The vehement hostility towards embryonic stem cell research, human and agricultural genetic engineering, heliocentrism, evolution, the round earth theory, and pretty much every scientific leap to have ever occurred throughout history begs to differ.

Science may not be incompatible with God, but in the hands of those who wish to toy with power, it most definitely is.

[DiceKiller]

Science is not incompatible with religion. Just look at Copernicus, Galilei, Newton, &c. In fact, science is useless unless God exists. It requires uniformity in nature. You don't have that without God.

I agree with your first sentence, but I wouldn't say this. If anything, God is useless without science. Science doesn't work because God wants it to work that way. If God wanted to do something, it would have to be through science.