goldpanner
KHI Site Staff

I love how despite the grueling disagreements, we're still civil. That's why it's still fun :3~

Oh. You remind me of myself XD; go to sleep, hun, the war can continue tomorrow.

8D Sparks are flying, dudette! XD

Hey, so how's life? Everything fine?

Thanks for the message, great to be here. I hope to get to work soon!^^

Hey what's up? I'm trying to learn Japanese now but it's hard. So much for trying to skip the beginner's books, haha.

And your conversations with Smile seem ridiculously long.

Oh right. remembered another thing that really made me think about Memories and memories like I do.
The fact that other people sharing his Memories meant his couldn't be restored properly. It seems to make more sense that it's because their own Memories were linked to the ones Namine replaced and delinked, seeing how it's basically just that - Memories exist in two Hearts. For Sora to forget something or remember it differently, the people the Memory/memory is shared with would have to too. But they remembered it well enough - as the original memory was there with the true Memories - just delinked and out of reach for Sora. For Namine to put it back into place however she needed to separate it, least the other people's chains would entangle it further.
It seems to work a lot less well to me with the 'make of Memory' theory.

your font still hurts my eyes.

My understanding of the process is based on trying to work out what this means. If all she had to do was make new links of Memory, why on earth didn't she just do that? What would she gain from rearranging them? If links of Memory only had events, then when she rearranges them, what would happen, she could make Sora remember things earlier or later? Then how did she make him remeber thigns that NEVER happened? And my answer was that each memory (as in, rememberable thing) is made up of tiny fragments that she can pick apart and put back together in a new order.

Well, how do you know she didn't? The meteor shower memory for once. For all we know, Sora could've 'remembered' it after Kairi already reached the islands. That would be him remembering something after it actually happened.
Also, Namine said it herself -

You still have all your memories.

To me, it always seemed more that the memories are there in their original form, albeit delinked. That is to say, she didn't snatch a Paopu from his memory and a white dress from this memory and the beach from this memory, but rewrote something new altogether. That is to say, the memory is new even by its Memory links. I'd sooner go with what Grace suggested being she painted over existing links in the chain as far as that is concerned, but that would contradict what Namine said as the memories were what she painted, not what was painted over.
Something else to point at that direction to me is actially Roxas. He was made to forget it all but he didn't. At the end he had his new, rewritten Memories and memories - as well as everything from his time in the Organization (sans Xion but I seriously doubt those came into play during KH2). So the more I think about it, the more I tend to disagree about there being true 'rewriting' of Memories.

If all she had to do was make new links of Memory, why on earth didn't she just do that?

Who said she didn't? There were new Memories there that were planted along with already existing memories and Memories. Then Sora remembered ONLY what Namine created in his Heart, but at the same time - he still had all of his Memories and memories. That's what really makes me believe that in Sora's Heart, the memories and Memories, both fake and real, existed at the same time. It's whether or not they were connected in a way his Heart could reach them that mattered. Because otherwise even that whole "remember Kairi plz" scene would be effectively making more mess inside Sora than good.

Yes, which is why I think that there would be multiple [wooden sword] Memories in the chain, occuring each time Sora experiences them.

That really sounds awkward to me because as much as it would work with the system you're presenting, it means that one wooden sword is actually as many wooden swords as Sora got to even glance at one, but that hardly means one thing would lead to another and then another. If you go with the wrong Wooden Sword Memory, you could end up never getting back to what's connected to the other Wooden Sword Memories.

What is my 'first connotation'? I don't really understand what you mean.

You say "chain" I see one long line. The chain you suggested would be that it branches - namely, not the first thing to come to mind for 'chain'.

They never said AT ALL how it worked in the games. They give us a whole bunch of mixed metaphors and leave the process to our imaginations.

Yes, and no. In a way they said exactly what she did. Only without "seeing" it, people try to read it in ways that might not have been intended :\ not saying it about you or me, but in general. I mean, if they didn't say AT ALL how it worked - why are you quoting Namine at me? XD

Yes, I don't understand this either. Why do they use the metaphor of 'chains' for memories, when Namine herself is meant to be a painter? They are mixing metaphors. However, when they talk about what she actually does to the metaphors, they say she 'rewrites them', but in CoM they don't say anything about her drawing or painting with the memories themselves. They make you think her notebook has something to do with it, because she has one, but we don't know if that's the tool she uses, the way computer programmers use computers, or whether she's more like a wizard and that's her wand, chanelling her powers, OR whether she just has one for the connotations it carries, and the way it makes us view her as a character (quiet, lonely, cute)

The thing with rewrite is that it can also mean replace.
If you already went into programming, I'll bring an example from that field which is one I'm good at.
Say you have a file. And the content for that file. And then you start writing new things over the file. Depending on your file system, file type, etc, the new content which supposedly should've been rewritten over the same place in the harddisk as the previous one - would actually get saved to a different location. You'd effectively have the two versions of the file on your hard drive, but only one you'd have "proper access" to, while the other would need you to restore it in one way or another.

Why do you think this?

Because I don't believe in SoKai, mostly. But also Namine's attitude. It was to save Sora, and so long as she was Sora's most important person, the Organization could use her as a tool. It was better for Sora for her to disappear out of his life, and with the Organization feeding her whatever about how she had to replace Kairi, she did what came naturally, and was everything she knew.

The game, and I mean the GAME, not our impressions or interpretations of the game, no matter what they might be, says that Kairi is Sora's light. Even if we think she doesn't deserve it, even if Sora seems to put Riku over Kairi, that's what it says.

o.O yeah, said the person I rolled over and died over Xion. I'd sooner put that, aside from crappy horrible writing, to her being a PoH.

It is saying that even though he can't remember her, those Memories exist somewhere. I.e. [spoiler] in Xion[/spoiler] at this point in time. And, they are such important links in the chain that without them, there are big gaping holes, and the Memories can’t connect on either side.

I'd sooner blame that on Namine putting herself in Kairi's social spot and the importance Sora gave those new memories XD;

Okay… so is this what you’re saying(?): My interpretation is bunk because Naminé HAD to have written a new Memory; if Xion [spoiler]ate all the Kairi Memories[/spoiler], how did Sora have feelings for Naminé, which we used to assume were those of Kairi?

Actually, the feelings were Namine oriented as whatever she might've based herself on, she said she was making whatever was there stronger. Hence why Kairi is only a friend as far as Sora is concerned but Namine is more than that - said by him. Light or no light.
Aside from that though, until they prove me right about Xion eating up Riku's Memories and hence his memory worlds were empty, then yes - Xion ate up those Memories, leaving Namine to make up new ones as she was running out of materials.

How does Xion fit in with this?

she's actually part of the motivation Namine would've had to force memories and Memories of Kairi back to Sora's chain. Because otherwise, so long as he kept forgetting her - Xion'd keep eating them up.

??

You're the one that raised the issue Namine could've been lying. She was guiding Sora away from her and to his real memories. Would be easier to have him work with her than against her, so she gave him a little coaxing.

As I said at the start, this is just how I came to explain the fact that in CoM she says she ‘rearranges’ Memory, and then in the novels is said to be unable to create Memory.

I'd sooner write the novels off as non-canon until the games explain it like the novels did :\

x.x your font color looks bad.

I will get to this some time... but, in the meantime, can you show me why you think they are "events"? Is there something in the canon that states it, or is this just your impression?

My impression, mostly from that line you referenced later on - once you remember something, it leads to another, and then another. Like links in a chain. Now true. If you remember "wooden sword" it could remind Sora of both Riku and Tidus, but that's not how chains work upon your very first connotation.

Therefore, to use that example, it’s not like there is ONE link that equals PAOPU, and every time a memory of Sora’s involves a paopu the chain has to double back and reconnect to that same link.

I never implied that was how it worked with chronology. Just that it seems weird for me to see it like that. I know the memory would indicate which links the [yellow] Memory would relate to, but... eh. They never really bothered making it so difficult in the games. Especially if you throw in Namine's motif as a painter. Painters draw pictures. They create a story visually. They don't bother putting things together like scientists do.

She also told Sora that he needed to remember Kairi, and then his memories would start to fall into place or something along those lines if I remember correctly

Yeah, not the best point to use with me seeing my views on the matter :v especially with Xion making me think she had an even better reason to try and get Sora to hang onto his Memories of Kairi. By then, she was practically begging him to think of someone else to follow rather than her, and Xion being in existence throws in the twist that she was eating up those Memories of Kairi - hence why she managed to attain Kairi's face about the time of Vexen's death - about that time is when Sora completely forgot about Kairi. Tying in with this, you have Sora not remembering a thing aside from Namine even after she pulled that silly charm performance. Namine is omnipotent ruler over Sora's Memories. I doubt he'd have remembered anything unless she let him, especially things he already couldn't. This wasn't "oh right, I forgot about it" - this was "it never happened" - especially for Kairi who didn't even get a figure on DI despite Namine being another girl (see Xion interference).

think of it as a wound that’s healing bit by bit? The edges first, then the healing spreads further…

Bad similie as that would leave a scar and not how it used to be at first. But I get what you wanna say.

Tl;dr, either Namine can sense the original order with her super magical powers that can do many other impossible things, or, the Memories themselves know how to connect themselves in the correct order, under Namine’s monitoring.

I really doubt the part about the Memories knowing how to put themselves back together. See again Sora not having a clue even after Namine pointed him in the right direction.
The thing is they never really implied anything of this "cooking" sort in the game. So while I do think there's Memory and memory, I don't think that a memory is made up of Memories in the way you describe it. One or more Memories would build up, say, the memory of their Promise, but it depends mostly on the length, not how many items and elements were involved.

I find it hard to see Memories in that sense so once you have the time and will, I'd like to see what brought you to believe Memories hold within them "objects" and "concepts" instead of "events". Especially as the whole metaphor of a "chain" doesn't really sit well with me in that aspect. You'd have to have the links entangled to for one Memory, and then how'd it link to another Memory? (er, I think I'm getting confused with the m and M but I hope you get my point)
It's true chains can have links tied to one another with more than two links being tied together. However, that isn't really how they described it in the game, especially with chronology - being the order of the links in the chain, seemingly having importance.
Then you have that arguably, Sora wouldn't have had enough "base" for Namine to draw all the Memories she'd want to from this.
And then we reach once again the issue of how to put it back together. If you have pages of a book that were scattered, by reading over all of them time and again you can eventually put together the original book by having the story make sense, and the pages tying to the pages that follow them and that they followed. However, if you have the "ingredients", I fail to see how Namine could've put them back together again without copies of the originals. This is what really makes me doubt any interpretation I ran into thus far other than that she made new Memories to paint the new memories over - it's all but impossible to put back, especially since we saw that once all the Memories were back, she managed to path Sora up in about a week (even without Kairi's intervention, it seems she wouldn't have needed another year).

Guess so.
Either way, sadly enough, this whole thing really made me take the novels with a grain of salt, especially joined with how little sense it makes to me that Namine can't create new memories :\

Good show, either way *offers hand in a shake*