Eraser Rain
Bitches blame karma

Don't worry about that, do it when you're well rested.
By now I am used to the fact that apparently each of us has Real Life taking away much of our online time, myself included. ;)

Certainly an interesting threshold to stop at, lol, I haven't really paid attention to my own postcount recently. I think last time I checked I was around 4.450.

Hey, didn't hear ya in a while, but nonetheless congrats on joining the club of the silver elite, lol.

That took me quite a while due to other important stuff, but here we go.

Judging by how Axel sees her first as someone who like Namine (if not Namine herself), and how he never made mention of her appearance changing, I like to think that Axel's view of her is at least still up for questioning. Regarding Vanitas, I don't see it so much of him influencing the others as I do the others influencing him.

Axel clearly states that she looks just "like Naminé", not that she looks exactly like Naminé, which isn't much of a stretch anyways since Kairi and Naminé (and therefore Xion) have the same face. There's also the incident where he finally tells Roxas the truth about Xion's nature and states that while she's "a mirror that reflects Roxas", it wasn't Roxas he saw in there.

I feel like the series gets both easier and harder with each installment. Harder in that there's more pieces to fit into the grand scheme of it all, easier in that more examples makes a clearer picture.

That's another interesting viewpoint on it. And I dare to assume that many people who whine that KH is "too convoluted" or "too hard to understand" simply either don't want or can't pick up all the necessary pieces to make that clearer picture. After all, a 50-piece puzzle is easier to solve than a 2000-piece one.

I like to think of XH as Xehanort's Darkness in its purest form. I'm thinking that the Kingdom Key is some sort of manifestation of someone's ultimate triumph over that darkness, reason being the Mickey keychain. Mickey has been there to save both Riku and AtW from Xehanort's Darkness, in some form or another.

If XH were this, he wouldn't be exactly a Heartless but the same type of being as Vanitas is. And by flipping that, Vanitas should, at least in theory, have the same possible abilities than XH (aka Ansem SoD) has. The hidden Mickey is a symbol that pops up everywhere in the KH Universe, not only on the keychain of the Kingdom Key. Don't you overthink it here a bit?
On the note of Mickey saving Riku and AtW, that's all nice and dandy, but he failed to save TAV in BBS and Sora in DDD from Xehanort's darkness, Terra and Aqua didn't get saved at all, Ventus lost his heart and Sora was saved by Lea.

It's something that I feel that can't be avoided with popular series such as KH; perverted teenagers just can't be helped :x

Like said I am not someone who demonizes this, heck, sometimes even I can read some fanworks which are "more perverted" or look at some "dirty" fanart even of the yuri or yaoi-kind.
I just get somewhat irked when it's treated as the primary thing about the characters or even worse, proposed to be included in the actual material of the series. That's where I draw a line.

lol this is what I mean by when you don't miss a detail.

That being said, though, we could correlate certain themes of Identity with "sense of self," and then it should be easier to relate it to wielding from there.

Well, I strive to be observant, lol.

Isn't the identity as a whole a central part of a sense of self? Isn't a sense of self only then "truly" fully developed if the being in question gains a separate identity and also believes in that identity?

I can see how that may relate to wielding, but I do assume that wielding a Keyblade is not such an important factor in the sense of self or the identity, as for that despite the recent "influx" of more wielders compared to the population of the entire universe it is still a very rare feed.

It can be a matter of perspective. One could easily see Light's advantage over Darkness just as another could see the exact opposite.

Perspectives matter of course as well, it also depends on the individual outlooks and interpretation of creation and destruction, order and chaos, life and death. It's always the same duality that follows through nearly every fictional work in some shape or form.

Lol, I love how the themes of the series are unfamiliar to its Western audience, as well.

Yep, and I guess that's also why the series often gets misinterpreted reviews or characters' behaviour being classified as "weird" in western views because they do not understand the context.
I don't know how often in the past two years I had to explain to someone that close physical affection does NOT always mean romantic interest/undertones.
The western society and media/films/etc. are so narrowly focused only on romance that they forget that there are other forms of love as well that can also incorporate physical and emotional closeness.

Aw thanks, Sephi. I still consider myself not as experienced as you when it comes to KH cosmology, so having that come from you means a lot. :D
And to be fair...I'm pretty burnt out now from that huge theory rush, so it's just downhill from here lol

Less experience doesn't need to be a hindrance, as you may see things with different eyes and can adapt easier if Nomura introduces a real hammer-change or new reveal in the cosmology.
And I mean what I said, so if that makes ya happy even better. :D
Since it has been almost a month by now (too much RL stuff for me to attend) I dare to assume you're revitalized by now. ;D

I can clearly see that being a reason, lol, you're so fast I cannot keep up. *ggg*

I've always found it easier to reason Xion's black hair appearance as something only Roxas (and now Xemnas) saw; it makes sense for Namine's interferences to be the reasoning, but since I was under the idea that Xion's appearance was based on the viewer's relationship with her, reasoning Xion's black hair appearance as Sora's memories resonating through Roxas made the situation easier to relate to Vanitas, whose black hair could have been a result of Sora's heart resonating through Ven (as vague as that sounds)

Well, back to the drawing board. :x

Don't forget Axel sees her as this too after a while, not only Roxas and Xemnas. Naminé herself also calls her "she" so she obviously also sees Xion's "own Xion-form". We don't even know if Vanitas has any influence or resonance at all in the Sora-Roxas-Ven dynamic since it isn't even confirmed what happened to him after Ventus destroyed the X-blade.
In the conversations beforehand Ventus made it pretty clear that he didn't want to be fused with Vanitas and that he intended to destroy both him and the X-blade.
It's not a stretch to look into the possibility of there being a relation between the hair colors, but the more I think about it the more I conclude that we are overthinking things here.

Unfortunately, my understanding of heart connections has been changing time and time again, so I still need to find that one explanation that fits just right.

Jeez, gonna go comment that with a quote from Riku: "They just never want to make this easy, do they?"

Not exactly. On another note, I think the Xehanort fiasco can be solved by somehow eliminating the originating factor: XH.

But, think of it this way, if it helps: If XH goes back in time and gives Young Xehanort a fake mustache, he will continue to wear that mustache even as MX, Terranort, Apprentice Xehanort, etc.

I see, as in eliminating Ansem SoD would eliminate the time-travelling powers in itself.
Yet that's ought to be the main problem, Nomura didn't point out that Ansem SoD returned no matter how often he's been defeated. There must be something more that not only allows Ansem to stay around as a being (all the tormented ones like Xion and Roxas can do that too!) but also allows him to return to influence the physical world again.

So, Ansem's a sort of imprinter. Somewhat weird nonetheless as the source of all this is actually MX when enacting his body-theft plan on Terra.

Have you ever seen Demyx, Zexion, and Marluxia cosplayers dogpiling each other in the most sexual manners? I know I have. :(

Ouch, a bunch of crazy fangirls I presume...
I mean, I have no problem at all with same-sex relationships(or sexual intercourse), but especially rabid Organisation XIII-fans tend to often overdo it (not to mention most of those pairings are completely unlogical and ridiculous).

Yeah, that was my bad lol...Kinda made up the term on the spot, to be honest.
After some more thinking, though, perhaps instead of a full-fledged theory on Identity, we could use some primary concepts that involve it to form a theory on keyblade wielding...I think it would seem more interesting to the average viewer.

Inventive, I've to say. ^__^
The Identity-theory would require much of preparation work beforehand anyways, I already made two monster-posts about parts of that topic in other threads, although the issue of Keyblade wielding also has many variables we cannot assign a true value to yet, it may be easier to wrap the mind around because it doesn't go so deeply into the essence of the "self" and the heart how it's handled in thes series.
Regarding this however I also remembered an interesting quote that also fits the general issue: Cogito ergo sum (I think, therefore I am), or, in more casual speech: "I am thinking, therefore I exist."
Flipped towards KH, this seems to be Sora's general stance on stuff as in "It/he/she has its own thoughts and feelings, therefore it's a person of its own". Donald, Goofy and Mickey also seem to take this stance towards Data-Sora in Coded.

Regarding the "heart's loss of existence," you answered that one yourself, as you can probably tell; while the heart would still maintain an eternal existence on some level, at the same time it would still lose its physical existence that defines its place within the flow of time. I think this is why Nomura said that both XH and Xemnas desired a complete existence.

While I feel there's some decent potential regarding the soul's relevance to the series, I feel as if it won't get that much attention at all, given that the form of death it's related to is actual, physical death; it'd be much harder to incorporate the series' themes in that sense, or to incorporate the same quality of symbolism found within Heartless and Nobodies. That's what I think, anyways.

Yeah, but that's why I brought up the term of "form". If the hearts' existence is eternal, it continues to exist regardless what happens to it. What changes is the form of its existence and what possible "layer of reality" (or "dimension") it can influence and interact with. Loss of the body and therefore the ability to influence and interact with the physical realm (aka the Realm of Light, if we can equate these two on one level) would then be just that: Loss of the physical form.

Going by the notion that while the physical existence is temporary, it is not that overly important in the sense of themes, as seen with Maleficent, her physical existence ended once but she gained a new one without the story putting much emphasis on this, as well as Nomura saying this:
"When Heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on."
This leads to the impression that losing the body isn't even that much of a bad thing since even if it was extinguished/destroyed, it can be somehow restored. And considering further that the soul inside the KH Universe is nothing truly personal but really only an energy battery (or an accumulator?) the only steps needed to "resurrect" a person or being would be 1. creating a body, 2. outfit it with a soul so it has energy and 3. find and reawaken the appropriate heart and put it in the body. While being "only" three steps, all three of them however do not sound like it's a walk in the park to do them and the series itself so far only gives us hints (with Ansem's data and Sora's heart power) to step 3. Step 1 and 2 are actually irrelevant in the cases of Ansem the Wise, Aqua and Ventus, because their bodies and souls are readily available. For Terra however these steps may become interesting if Xehanort cannot be banished from his body without damaging it and for Naminé, Xion and Roxas they're practically a must-do.

You could consider Darkness' achievement of becoming an eternal element to be a sign of evolution over Light, as Light wouldn't be able to achieve that (since it supposedly has existed eternally). I'd imagine Xehanort's theory to be that, if Darkness can go from being nonexistent to becoming the destruction of the original universe, then it just keeps on going uphill from there.

Speaking of real world parallelism, though...As far-fetched as this may sound, I'm growing more and more suspicious that Nomura actually is basing various part of the series off of popular religion (specifically Christianity). Kingdom Keys mimicking the Cross Keys, the Birth of Darkness mimicking the Garden of Eden, Xehanort mimicking Cain...and that the whole "KH isn't based off anything" is just used as a means to avoid controversy (and I'm sure Disney couldn't agree more). Crazy-ass idea, but at the same time believable.

Would Light however not even need to achieve that because it already IS an eternal element? Light seems to not make evolution with itself, it evolves other things by creating and granting life, regardless if human, animal, plant or entire worlds and these things evolve then. Darkness on the other hand disrupts and cripples that evolution in order to facilitate its own. This bears more resemblance to a parasite than true evolution, as Darkness cannot do anything on its own, it can only take things made from Light and twist them, which would however go hand in hand with the notion of it being born inside the hearts of humans where originally was only light.

It's also possible that Nomura only goes off on the symbolism because it's "exotic" to the Japanese audience. Hideaki Anno did nearly the same with Neon Genesis Evangelion, which has much christian imagery (hello, cross explosions) and symbolism but doesn't give much shit on actual religion inside the show. Having exotic symbolism and imagery inside their works is a common thing for the Japanese (as is their preference for German and Germany). I remember watching an anime show and when they showed a map of the main kingdom where the Capital was called "Kuchen" (German for cake) I as a native German got into a giggling fit.

Glad you came to the same perspective that I found; the lack of responses from everyone actually had me worried that my theory was more crazy and nonsensical than believable. You couldn't have worded it better when you say "degrading nearly all other characters to mere facets of Xehanorts 'journey,''" and I definitely share the same disturbed sentiments. That being said, though, I'd be lying if I said this perspective didn't deepen my appreciation for the series.

Heh, seems we think alike in several areas (although I'm much slower in some cases it seems). It does sound totally crazy on first reading, but when reading deeper and seeing how the actual argument chain fits, it becomes much more creepy but also to an extent "awesome".
That was the best fitting solution statement I could think of, and therefore I would probably go nuts if this would be really the case, but as a parallelism it does surely serve as an interesting perspective.

That all being said though, in terms of creativity and open-mindedness you are among the most interesting persons I met in this community. Even if I am "a person that develops preexisting ideas and concepts on a much larger scale than everyone else, that turns them into borderline-canon material.", the time I need to do so cannot keep up with the sheer pace on which your mind is churning out new theories and ideas.
Dude, you're an amazing guy. ^__^

Gee, I wonder when you answer the rest of that conversation?

On the issue with "everything existing through Xehanort" I have to admit that I was speechless, couldn't even comprehend it at first because it's just too fantastic, not to mention degrading nearly all other characters to mere facets of Xehanorts "journey", so I lean clearly more to the "disturbing" side than the "beautiful" one.

So, finally going to tackle this:

The biggest problem is that Nomura explained Xion's "black-haired" appearance as a result of people related to a certain person (that person probably being Kairi). So, it's implied that her black hair has more to do with Kairi/some other person than the viewer, which I don't think makes much sense.

I don't remember Nomura speaking specifically of the black-hair or putting much emphasis on that, instead going on more about her general appearance being related to Kairi because Sora's memories regarding Kairi where the ones the most messed up by Naminé and therefore the first and foremost Xion could absorb. Since it functioned like that the memory chainlinks that came loose in Sora's heart trickled through their connection into Roxas first and where then absorbed from there by Xion, it stands to reason that Roxas probably retained a faint imprint of these memories (which would also explain his weird dreams later on and seeing "the boy in red" more often), which would explain why he sees her as a "Kairi" first.
If I recall correctly, Xion having black hair was an idea Tomoco Kanemaki had which Nomura liked and included.

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Going by this, I think it would be safe to assume that Roxas' and Naminé's hearts where "created/born" by the "mini-KH" that consisted of Sora's, Kairi's and Ventus' hearts?
Just like Xemnas' heart was "created/born" by the "mini-KH" of Xehanort's, Terra's and Eraqus' hearts? And what about Ansem SoD, has he a new heart too? (Having an own sense of self separate from Xehanort, Xemnas or Terra would indicate that)

I think I know which procedure you're hinting at here, something like the two Crimson Prankster Heartless we had as bosses in Days.
Which means each "Xehanort"-version serves as an "anchor", a "life insurance" for all the other Norts. This would mean that as long as one Nort is still alive and kickin', he could revive all the others all over given the appropriate time.
The only possibility to defeat Xehanort for good then would be to kill off all his forms in a relatively short period of time.

Why that, lol? Was the KH convention overrun with shippers? *ggg*.

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Whoa, you're really chuming out theories like nothing right now. What do you smoke? rofl.

Have we even a list yet on what core concepts that identity theory would work?
I had to look up "evolutions of dimensions" first and do some fancy research in other fields since I didn't really know the term, lol.

There's a small logical error in the explanation:
If the heart defines "eternal existence" in the first place, how can it "lose its existence" in the third bullet point of the explanation. If it's an eternal existence it cannot lose it, that would be a paradox.
Or are we talking the "form" of the existence, as in spiritual/physical/mental as while an "eternal existence" may not be able to be truly "lost", it may be able to change form.
The body is definitely a temporary issue as it needs the energy of the soul to function. Without it, the body cannot be sustained and the heart loses the ability to influence things in the physical world.
Regarding the soul there's also the thing that we don't know much about how it functions in the KH Universe, the only hint being it is "like a battery".
It'll be interesting to look at what exactly happens with the soul when it departs the body. When it departs, it most likely means that all energy stored in it has been used up, so what then? Does that particular soul disappear for good, or does it go somewhere where it can be recharged to power a new body?
And if the identity/sense of self in the KH Universe rests within the heart, which is able to be shattered and get inactive but never truly completely destroyed (due to the immortality of memories and being the "eternal existence"), does the soul even fulfill other "duties" than being an energy supplier for bodies enabling hearts to exist within the physical world/layer/or "dimension"?

I agree it does have quite some analogies to theological ideologies in the Real World, although I wonder if we can really describe light as "stagnant" since every new heart and new existence is born from light and originally only this before Darkness taints it. Worlds and being are created from light, this is also an evolution and we have yet to see darkness create something, so far, we saw it only destroying stuff.

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Shall I call you Speedy Gonzales of theories now? *ggg*

Howdy, howdy, you're way too fast for me with my limited time to keep up, haha.

I need to read your last three messages in detail to properly answer them, but that I can do only a bit later. Right now, a new project at work requires my full attention. <__<

I tried looking for a term in big bang cosmology - which seemed the closest, since I know of no actual study in other dimensions and how they change over time - and couldn't find zip, sorry :c

It's however the most plausible explanation we have atm. Yeah, which I also suspect has to do with the fact that the connection between Terra+MX which ultimately is the reason for Xemnas' "specialness" is different than the Sora+Ven one which is responsible for Roxas "specialness".
Of course, then there's also Kairi purifying Sora which is another factor which doesn't exist in Xemnas' case.

Hmm, I'm a bit confused with the wording, but I suspect you might have an idea here which I actually use in my FanFic already (nope, I haven't posted up to that point yet, therefore spoiler-tags:)

Spoiler: Because of similarity to my own ideas in FanFic

So in essence you mean that true new born hearts (like Roxas' for example) can only come about when at least two hearts are tightly connected enough to "create" that new heart. Except the issue that somehow the two "donor"-hearts in your proposal are apparently directly part of the new heart this sounds much like my BGT-concept. BGT standing for "Base Genesis Trinity" which requires at least three hearts (in Roxas' case it would be Kairi, Sora and Ven involved in different intensity, same goes for Naminé) in order to give birth to a complete new heart. It's just like the true KH functions, but on a smaller scale.

If all Xehanort's would have the same power Young Xehanort wouldn't be needed as a portal, would he? Not to mention Nomura's statement that Young Xehanort is only borrowing the power from Ansem SoD because Ansem gave it to him. If every Xehanort could have the power, Young Xehanort would not need to borrow it nor would Ansem need to do all these shenanigans in the first place, he could just initiate everything by himself.

I can understand that, it gets especially nasty if some parts of the fandom get fanon and canon mixed together and expect things that are more than just unrealistic. <__<

Alright.........................dad.