Nobodies - what /is/ left of the Heart, anyway?

[incognito]

Think of namine like roxas.
maybe kairi's heart reacts to her to.

it's 2 seperate bodies and personalities of the same heart.
Sorry if i'm confusing.

[Cissy]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

But a Nobody is someone's Body and Soul. So when he gets the Nobody back, he gets those. The Body and Soul in Namine though were Sora's :\

Isn't it still rather up in the air whether or not Namine is actually made out of Sora's body soul?

I know AtW said that she used Sora's body and soul as an intermediary, but I'm not sure if that means she's made up of such, or that she simply came into being because of his body and soul.

Some say she is, some say she's a very unstable existent who is missing a body and soul... :/

If she isn't actually made out of his body and soul, then I think I know why she went to Kairi.

If nobodies are closely connected to their original hearts (which I'm supposing this is true, based on the fact that Namine is considered Kairi's nobody because of the fact she's connected to her heart) then it goes without saying why she returned to her.

Let's say that Namine was not made up of Sora's Body and Soul. Let's just say that she had no body, no soul, and was therefore an extremely unstable existence, and was barely a nobody to begin with (which was Ansem's first impression of her.)

Even so, she is still Kairi's nobody because of the connection she has with her original heart. This connection could also explain why Namine grew from COM-KH2 (though, in my opinion, I think all human-esque nobodies can grow. ;P)

She had nothing to give. No body to give. No soul to give. She was simply a wandering existence. But, because of her connection to Kairi's heart, it was imperitive that she returned to Kairi. Despite being composed of practically nothing, she was still Kairi's Nobody.

That is to say, it's possible that the only way Namine could continue to "exist" was by returning to Kairi. She may have been eaten up by darkness later on, but at least this way she could continue to live, inside of her original form.

Roxas, on the other hand, was definitely made out of Sora's body and soul. So, he had to return to Sora.

Another thing to note, the whole reason why Namine has her powers is because the heart she came from, Kairi's, was very close to Sora's heart. That is to say, this could very well prove how Namine has a connection to Kairi's heart, and why she had to return to Kairi.

Actually, if she really had no body and soul, then she probably didn't need to go back to Kairi. Kairi was still whole. It's possible that Namine did this for herself, so that she herself could be complete, and stay by Roxas/Sora's side as a complete being.

[Valamphias]

So, in effect, Naminé was nothing to begin with, and only came into being due to the unique circumstances surrounding Sora and Kairi?

[Cissy]

I'm not exactly sure to be honest.

Ansem says one thing, than later says something to contradict that.

So, I'm simply basing off of assumptions at the moment.

[Valamphias]

It makes sense in context, but then one can't be certain one way or the other if Naminé was composed of the body and soul of Sora. Unless this is explored briefly in a later game, we may never know the exact nature of exactly what happened.

Unless Nomura just comes out and addresses this issue.

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Cissy

Isn't it still rather up in the air whether or not Namine is actually made out of Sora's body soul?

Then they had better explain it :\

If she isn't actually made out of his body and soul, then I think I know why she went to Kairi.

That goes without saying, but it seems logical to me that she does have something there. Otherwise... *glances at Unbirths issue*

Roxas, on the other hand, was definitely made out of Sora's body and soul. So, he had to return to Sora.

Ven :\

Another thing to note, the whole reason why Namine has her powers is because the heart she came from, Kairi's, was very close to Sora's heart. That is to say, this could very well prove how Namine has a connection to Kairi's heart, and why she had to return to Kairi.

Actually, this more relates her to Sora, having came from his Body and Soul, and not Kairi's Heart. Kairi's Heart was "there", but the main attraction was that Namine was a Nobody that came from Sora.
Thus she has connections to his Memories specifically.

Actually, if she really had no body and soul, then she probably didn't need to go back to Kairi. Kairi was still whole. It's possible that Namine did this for herself, so that she herself could be complete, and stay by Roxas/Sora's side as a complete being.

I think that's kinda true regardless, seeing how Namine, at least in the original GBA, never wanted to be "whole", and people could only quote me the novels in that aspect and even then I quirked a brow.
Namine doesn't want an existence via having a Heart, she wants an existence of being remembered by one.
But meh. That still leaves the question of what Namine does have in her. I'm too rational to accept she just popped up as a side effect :\ especially when all clues that matter point at her relation to Sora, not Kairi.

[Cissy]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

Then they had better explain it :\

They should.

Ven :\

His appearance, yes. But from what I can tell, Roxas was made with Sora's body and soul (thus why he had to return to Sora), and as to why he looks like Ven...well. xD My personal theory is that Roxas holds Ven's heart, which is why he looks like that, but I know that theory has next to no credibility, for many reasons.

Actually, this more relates her to Sora, having came from his Body and Soul, and not Kairi's Heart. Kairi's Heart was "there", but the main attraction was that Namine was a Nobody that came from Sora.
Thus she has connections to his Memories specifically.

I meant to say that Kairi's closeness to Sora's heart during KH1 is what caused Namine to have power over his memories. Because she's her nobody, she gained those abilities through Kairi's interaction with his heart. The fact that she was made from Sora shouldn't affect the outcome, for Roxas was made from Sora as well. To put it simply, she had power of his heart and memories because Kairi, a PoH, had been basically "living" with his heart throughout all of KH1. So yes, she is greatly affected by Sora, but through Kairi's Heart, because Kairi's heart was the one that was released; she may have been made with Sora's body and soul, but it was because of Kairi's heart that she was considered Kairi's nobody, and also why she gained the ability to mess with Sora's heart.

I may be wording this rather oddly.

I think that's kinda true regardless, seeing how Namine, at least in the original GBA, never wanted to be "whole", and people could only quote me the novels in that aspect and even then I quirked a brow.
Namine doesn't want an existence via having a Heart, she wants an existence of being remembered by one.
But meh. That still leaves the question of what Namine does have in her. I'm too rational to accept she just popped up as a side effect :\ especially when all clues that matter point at her relation to Sora, not Kairi.

She's the result of a process that came about with less-than-enough materials.

It's like going through an experiment, but missing critical tools to go about with the whole thing. You'll get a result of some sort, but it certainly won't be what you'd expect.

That's how I see it. She's something, just not what she should be (if we were to consider her a nobody, I mean.)

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Cissy

His appearance, yes. But from what I can tell, Roxas was made with Sora's body and soul (thus why he had to return to Sora), and as to why he looks like Ven...well. xD My personal theory is that Roxas holds Ven's heart, which is why he looks like that, but I know that theory has next to no credibility, for many reasons.

PMF kinda convinced me permanently that if anything, Sora probably has Ven's Soul inside him, otherwise the Heart would've been released as well :\ it makes more sense to me.

I meant to say that Kairi's closeness to Sora's heart during KH1 is what caused Namine to have power over his memories. Because she's her nobody, she gained those abilities through Kairi's interaction with his heart. The fact that she was made from Sora shouldn't affect the outcome, for Roxas was made from Sora as well. To put it simply, she had power of his heart and memories because Kairi, a PoH, had been basically "living" with his heart throughout all of KH1. So yes, she is greatly affected by Sora, but through Kairi's Heart, because Kairi's heart was the one that was released; she may have been made with Sora's body and soul, but it was because of Kairi's heart that she was considered Kairi's nobody, and also why she gained the ability to mess with Sora's heart.

I kinda disagree with this, especially since you brought Roxas up as an example, and Roxas is the proof that Nobodies that come from Sora have connection to Sora's Memories because they came from Sora.
When Sora regained himself, Roxas lost his Memories.
In order to properly restore Sora's Memories, Roxas was needed.
The more Sora regained his Memories, so did Roxas, in general.
I understand what you're saying about Kairi's Heart being in close contact with Sora's, but that still leaves it more as her Heart being close to Sora's Heart, rather than it being Kairi's Heart that was in contact with it.
I hope you got what I was trying to say and what I think influenced it more.

She's the result of a process that came about with less-than-enough materials.

Which again brings me to my original question - what is she then that not only made her up, but made her go to Kairi, seeing how what did make her up was most likely Sora, and Kairi's Heart was unaffected, otherwise KH1 never should've happened the way it did, being the Keyhole to Darkness reaching balance, the Heart Unlocker disappearing, yadda yadda yadda.

It's like going through an experiment, but missing critical tools to go about with the whole thing. You'll get a result of some sort, but it certainly won't be what you'd expect.

But in a way, Namine is exactly what one would expect - a Nobody formed due to a Heart leaving a Body :\

That's how I see it. She's something, just not what she should be (if we were to consider her a nobody, I mean.)

Which leads me back to my original question of wtf is she made up of then, if we say she truly is a Nobody and not an Unbirth or something (I'm starting to really like that train of thought too much XD;;; )
Also, saying that a Nobody is something is kind of contradictory by definition XD but on the other hand I never fully agreed with saying they didn't 'exist', so meh.

[Cissy]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

PMF kinda convinced me permanently that if anything, Sora probably has Ven's Soul inside him, otherwise the Heart would've been released as well :\ it makes more sense to me.

If such, it makes me wonder if Sora actually has his own soul, or no. :x

I kinda disagree with this, especially since you brought Roxas up as an example, and Roxas is the proof that Nobodies that come from Sora have connection to Sora's Memories because they came from Sora.
When Sora regained himself, Roxas lost his Memories.
In order to properly restore Sora's Memories, Roxas was needed.
The more Sora regained his Memories, so did Roxas, in general.
I understand what you're saying about Kairi's Heart being in close contact with Sora's, but that still leaves it more as her Heart being close to Sora's Heart, rather than it being Kairi's Heart that was in contact with it.
I hope you got what I was trying to say and what I think influenced it more.

Eh. Fair enough.

Which again brings me to my original question - what is she then that not only made her up, but made her go to Kairi, seeing how what did make her up was most likely Sora, and Kairi's Heart was unaffected, otherwise KH1 never should've happened the way it did, being the Keyhole to Darkness reaching balance, the Heart Unlocker disappearing, yadda yadda yadda.



But in a way, Namine is exactly what one would expect - a Nobody formed due to a Heart leaving a Body :\



Which leads me back to my original question of wtf is she made up of then, if we say she truly is a Nobody and not an Unbirth or something (I'm starting to really like that train of thought too much XD;;; )
Also, saying that a Nobody is something is kind of contradictory by definition XD but on the other hand I never fully agreed with saying they didn't 'exist', so meh.

Plothole seems to be the "in" thing nowadays.

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Cissy

If such, it makes me wonder if Sora actually has his own soul, or no. :x

He probably does, seeing how he seems to have been alive prior to Terra "doing his thing", but if it's only his own, we've yet to see.

Plothole seems to be the "in" thing nowadays.

*shakes fist @ Nomura's general direction namely @ Japan*

[xkoolguy90x]

in 1 of the ansem reports or sometime during the game they explained that nobodies are created by people losing their hearts. each person is made of a heart and a body. when a heartless takes the heart, they become stronger/heart fades away into kingdom hearts. since the heart is gone, the body turns into a shell which is what a nobody is. its lost its heart and now is just a moving body that also seeks a heart but can never get a heart anymore since it lost its own.

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by xkoolguy90x

each person is made of a heart and a body.

You forgot the Soul.

when a heartless takes the heart

Uh, the Heart itself turns into a Heartless.

they become stronger/heart fades away into kingdom hearts.

...the Heart doesn't fade into Kingdom Hearts until the Heartless it became was slain by a Keyblade.

since the heart is gone, the body turns into a shell which is what a nobody is. its lost its heart and now is just a moving body that also seeks a heart but can never get a heart anymore since it lost its own.

Nobodies can receive Hearts, though so far we've only seen Nobodies get their original Hearts rather than what the Organization was planning.

And you didn't answer any of the questions I brought up :\

[esper1]

First, I'm going to complicate things by asking another question - are we to assume that generally, a person who "loses their heart" is technically dead? *

If so, this can lead to several points;

1. When the person's heart is removed, their body disappears (see Sora's post-seppuku dissolve into gold glitter.) I assuming the soul dissolves as well.
2. This means that there is no body/soul to create anything from. This means that the Nobody is nothing but a shadow/ghost that is cast by the removed heart (the core of the person's being), and the heart itself becomes swamped in darkness = a heartless. If the body/soul mean anything at all, they just provide the matter for the creation of the shadow/Nobody.
If the creation of a Nobody and a heartless is dependant on the removal of a heart, then it is the heart that is the key factor.
3. Kairi effectively resurrected Sora using just his heart (I'm assuming she could do this because she was still connected to it.) She recreated his body and soul from his heart, and I'm assuming she banished the darkness from his heart with her light.

So my first theory is that Namine is in fact less than a Nobody because there was a heart to cast the shadow/ghost (Kairi's) but no body/soul to create the form with, as Sora's had been used to create Roxas, and Kairi's body/soul was elsewhere and not connected to the heart anyway.

If this is not the case and Namine's form was created from Sora's body/soul, then she is a hybrid ghost/shadow of Sora's memories & Kairi's image.

If the latter is the case, then I'm glad that they didn't pursue a proto-romance angle with Roxas & Namine's relationship, cause that would be weird, as Namine would be fancying a part of herself (the Sora part.)

(*Kairi doesn't count because her heart latched on to Sora's, so technically she would have been in a type of coma, plus her body didn't disappear on account of there being no darkness in her heart or something to that effect.)

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by esper1

First, I'm going to complicate things by asking another question - are we to assume that generally, a person who "loses their heart" is technically dead? *

nope. Death only occurs when the Soul leaves the Body. In a way, also, if the Nobody is beaten before the Heartless or wasn't around at all.
People that have both Nobodies and Heartless can be 'revived'.

2. This means that there is no body/soul to create anything from. This means that the Nobody is nothing but a shadow/ghost that is cast by the removed heart (the core of the person's being), and the heart itself becomes swamped in darkness = a heartless. If the body/soul mean anything at all, they just provide the matter for the creation of the shadow/Nobody.
If the creation of a Nobody and a heartless is dependant on the removal of a heart, then it is the heart that is the key factor.

...er, no. A Nobody is just that - the Body and Soul with the Heart removed.

3. Kairi effectively resurrected Sora using just his heart (I'm assuming she could do this because she was still connected to it.) She recreated his body and soul from his heart, and I'm assuming she banished the darkness from his heart with her light.

Because she was a PoH she could cleanse his Darkness. The Body and Soul were still around as Roxas though.

So my first theory is that Namine is in fact less than a Nobody because there was a heart to cast the shadow/ghost (Kairi's) but no body/soul to create the form with, as Sora's had been used to create Roxas, and Kairi's body/soul was elsewhere and not connected to the heart anyway.

So she's not a Nobody. I can accept that. I just wish they'd have explained it.

If this is not the case and Namine's form was created from Sora's body/soul, then she is a hybrid ghost/shadow of Sora's memories & Kairi's image.

Er, no, otherwise either Sora'd have been missing Memories from the get-go, or Namine would've had some MEmories.
Neither happened.

If the latter is the case, then I'm glad that they didn't pursue a proto-romance angle with Roxas & Namine's relationship, cause that would be weird, as Namine would be fancying a part of herself (the Sora part.)

Namine and Roxas shouldn't exist period. Their entire relationship is Sora-dependent.

(*Kairi doesn't count because her heart latched on to Sora's, so technically she would have been in a type of coma, plus her body didn't disappear on account of there being no darkness in her heart or something to that effect.)

we know that, yes.

:\

[esper1]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

nope. Death only occurs when the Soul leaves the Body. In a way, also, if the Nobody is beaten before the Heartless or wasn't around at all.
People that have both Nobodies and Heartless can be 'revived'.

So, Nobodies are just defective humans/living beings without hearts, then?

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

...er, no. A Nobody is just that - the Body and Soul with the Heart removed.

OK, fine. I still think my theory makes more sense, though.

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

Er, no, otherwise either Sora'd have been missing Memories from the get-go, or Namine would've had some MEmories.
Neither happened.

I thought she had copies of his memories to play around with? Or can she just "access" them? Whatever. Alot about Namine's ability still needs to be cleared up/explained.

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

Namine and Roxas shouldn't exist period. Their entire relationship is Sora-dependent.

I don't get that last part - what relationship? You mean they're only connected because they were both created (accidentally) through Sora's actions?

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

we know that, yes.

:\

I know you know that. I was only stating the obvious in case somebody claimed I'd missed Kairi in my explanations.