The Organization was bad?

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by kaito kid kalik

to think this 15 year old kid runs around killing ppl left and right, then returns home and can smile is...disturbing

It's called 'denial', and maybe patch-up work on Namine's part XD;
Sora: time to go home *mentally broken*
Namine: *resets him* ^_^

[*TwilightNight*]

Is hard to defend Larxene for her actions, because unlike the rest, she truly is a sadist. She can be able to be understood by anylizing her personality (I'm not going into it, since this isn't the topic), but even with that, her actions still aren't justified. Taking your problems out on others isn't right. But compared to Axel in Castle Oblivion at that time, I place her second. She just didn't get a pity plot.

To the topic of the Organization, I do think they are misunderstood. First, thre is no prove or evidence, not to mention, nobody has ever said, that the Org. took the hearts out of living beings, which I'm guessing to be humans. AT ALL. They just kill Heartless, the way Sora does, and release their hearts. The said hearts, even when dragged into their moon, are never said to be in any danger. All the explanation Riku provides, or anyone provides other than hinting Xemnas obtaining power will be a bad idea, is "You mess up our worlds."

>.>

Considering the worlds were fine, no vortex to suck them in, no dimension problems, and basically, nothing that would put the said world in peril, it seems kind of left field. Four or so worlds that the Organization visited out of perhaps, the hundreds that there are, some that are basically where Sora steps and the focus is always on Sora, it comes to that conclusion. All that Xigbar really did is make a Dragon Heartless (how was it possible, or whether it was seen, or he actually did so, is not shown, or whether it can be summoned, considering there are Emblem Heartless everywhere. Is just him because he was the one there) that Sora was meant to fight, not that he didn't have the power to, and a huge heart came out of it for the collection. That was it. No after effect. The actual Disney villain of that world was more of a threat, but of course, they never mention them. Luxord is the same, and while he did conk Will in the head (and this is done to actual pirates, you know, who pilfer, plunder, and kill. The game must've missed that with the E+ rating, and yet Sora is friends with them. I wonder if he knows Jack can turn his back on him any given second if it's befitting), and reinstated the curse (a mini that wasn't really that difficult), all was done over with the moment that Heartless was defeated. No after effect. Demyx barely did anything worth mentioning that is world threatening, except fight Sora, and there was even a chance to talk things over, get some info, as nobody pulled a weapon, and yet Sora came to mock him instead.

In Hollow Bastion, is more complicated, because there was a war of Heartless and Nobodies swatting each other, Maleficent was in the picture (who acted really out of character at one point in getting Sora out, which is WTF?), and it seems she was the one causing problems. The only tell-tale thing that was really, truly done that involved the actual work of Xemnas, is the 1,000 Heartless battle, and that wasn't even instigated by the members, if not, the leader himself. And Xaldin, who actually threatened Sora's friends, like Beast and Belle. And Saïx taking Kairi and taunting Sora. Is still nothing world damaging, really. What they did wasn't that horrible compared to what they could've done.

Add their goal, their own reasons that I think were said, and the fact that they don't have hearts to actually feel any consequences of their actions, there it is. But admittingly, even with Yensid, the Org. never exactly gave Sora a reason to trust them, really. However, maybe if he was aware of the situation more, any other hero would've come to a more peaceful conclusion. There WAS a actual peaceful way to solve this.

Yet, then there wouldn't be a game. They're lucky they made Sora on the stupid side. KH is filled with plot holes anyway.

[Rufus Shinra]

^ I agree with this. It adds deep to KH in my opinion to have villains so much ambiguous, and it's even surprising since Disney is involved, generally their villain are evil, evil and evil.

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

The time of the month?

If it's the case, I had no clue it could lead to that point XD I wonder if Nobody even have that kind of issue...

[OmniChaos]

Originally Posted by Lezard Valeth

Well, the ending could have been very different. I am not sure Xemnas would have easilly been convinced etc, but I don't think he'd have said no to negotiations, even though he's kind of power hungry he still want the 'good' for Nobody, he wouldn't have refused a peaceful discussion with the Keyblade wielder, but instead those took their keyblade and yelled "We're going to annihilate you!!!"

Originally Posted by Lezard Valeth

He did a lost mistake, but I wouldn't call him evil... He just didn't understand what a heart really is and thus had the wrong base.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one... Of the Org members, I would have to say Xemnas was the only "truely evil" one... His main goal seemed to be obtaining power and he seemed to be using the Org as his puppets in order to obtain it... Once he was alone, his outer priorities seemed to shift...

Maybe

Eh... Xaldin seemed like he just wanted to be whole...

We have no clue of why he wanted take the control of the Organization, so I don't really know...

Heh... Maybe he uncovered Xemnas' true goal...?

[SufferingAngel]

Ok. I'm not saying they're evil or not, but I am saying that you're looking at it from a very singular point of view while ignoring the others, amongst them the one that seems to be the main one in the game.

Originally Posted by *TwilightNight*

To the topic of the Organization, I do think they are misunderstood. First, thre is no prove or evidence, not to mention, nobody has ever said, that the Org. took the hearts out of living beings, which I'm guessing to be humans. AT ALL. They just kill Heartless, the way Sora does, and release their hearts. The said hearts, even when dragged into their moon, are never said to be in any danger. All the explanation Riku provides, or anyone provides other than hinting Xemnas obtaining power will be a bad idea, is "You mess up our worlds."

You brought most of these examples yourself, which is why I don't see how you can say that. And those're only the examples we've seen, keep in mind the Organization's been around for a long time before and did a lot of things we didn't get to see during.

They chased after Beast in order to try and turn him into a Heartless to get his Nobody and Heart.
They turned the dragon in the Land of Dragons into a Heartless, and later on we fight the biggest Dragon Nobody EVER at TWTNW.
They scattered mayhem throughout Port Royal.
They were the ones who pulled Jafar's lamp out of imprisonment.

They go after the living alright, otherwise they can't make sure they'll have either an army nor enough Hearts to make KH. No one ever said everyone else around them was perfect and Sora sure as heck doesn't trust Jack, at least not anymore.

And Xaldin, who actually threatened Sora's friends, like Beast and Belle. And Saïx taking Kairi and taunting Sora. Is still nothing world damaging, really. What they did wasn't that horrible compared to what they could've done.

but it was still horrible, you're missing the point. They don't need to tear down the whole worlds to be evil, and in fact, another singular crime after singular crime like that are more horrible, in my mind.
It's effectively breaking down the 'statistics' into the singular cases involved, which is what we get shown in KH2 - which in a way is perfect to show why Sora would want to kick their arses, since he saves his friends, not the multiverse.

Add their goal, their own reasons that I think were said, and the fact that they don't have hearts to actually feel any consequences of their actions, there it is.

You just stated their evil for they have no conscious or means to care about anyone else.

But admittingly, even with Yensid, the Org. never exactly gave Sora a reason to trust them, really. However, maybe if he was aware of the situation more, any other hero would've come to a more peaceful conclusion. There WAS a actual peaceful way to solve this.

No, there wasn't. They rammed through anyone on their way.

Yet, then there wouldn't be a game. They're lucky they made Sora on the stupid side. KH is filled with plot holes anyway.

I think he subconcsiously had enough reason to hate anyone in the Org based on CoM, but that's just me.

[Rufus Shinra]

Originally Posted by OmniChaos

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one... Of the Org members, I would have to say Xemnas was the only "truely evil" one... His main goal seemed to be obtaining power and he seemed to be using the Org as his puppets in order to obtain it... Once he was alone, his outer priorities seemed to shift...

That is why I don't think he is really "evil", it's once he was alone that his priority seemed to shift. Actually, obtaining power and 'healing' all Nobody can both be done with the same Kingdom Hearts, I really think he was honest in wanting to give a heart to all Nobody, doing this didn't stop him from getting power.
When he left his 'power hungry' side show, all others member were dead. It's not like he could share his 'happiness', if I could say, with all others members, he was the last one, the only people to who he could talk are those who killed all of his members. I think Xemnas was pretty much 'hating' them, in the way a nobody can, and it's why he so much insisted on getting more power.

Eh... Xaldin seemed like he just wanted to be whole...

I also see this, but well, since he got near of none character development, maybe he has an evil nature...

Heh... Maybe he uncovered Xemnas' true goal...?

Possible, I never saw Marluxia as evil like I said. I am more inclined to think he has a leader spirit, and thought he'd be more efficient and faster than Xemnas, leading him to do what we know.
But, I am not sure, like I said, I think Xemnas is not that much evil...

but it was still horrible, you're missing the point. They don't need to tear down the whole worlds to be evil, and in fact, another singular crime after singular crime like that are more horrible, in my mind.
It's effectively breaking down the 'statistics' into the singular cases involved, which is what we get shown in KH2 - which in a way is perfect to show why Sora would want to kick their arses, since he saves his friends, not the multiverse.

Things is that, the Organization didn't do those before Sora acts like "You must all die!"
I won't take away the blame that they deserve to have for those actions, nevertheless they had in front of them a very stubborn keyblade wielder who would not have accepted to negotiate...

What I mean, is, getting a heart for the Organization is vital, they can survive without it but they 'suffer' to lack or it, or else they wouldn't be looking at it this way. With all the keyblade wielder in 'activity' against them, what others choice did they have?

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Lezard Valeth

Possible, I never saw Marluxia as evil like I said. I am more inclined to think he has a leader spirit, and thought he'd be more efficient and faster than Xemnas, leading him to do what we know.
But, I am not sure, like I said, I think Xemnas is not that much evil...

All I can say is our views of evil are very different, and I'd rather stay away from people you'd deem as 'leaders' O:

Things is that, the Organization didn't do those before Sora acts like "You must all die!"

He didn't go 'you must all die!' right off the bat. He was willing to fight them, yes, but even when they met Demyx, already after meeting Xaldin, they didn't go right for his head. Demyx was then under orders to use violence to get Roxas out, so he did.
And before that was Xaldin.
Sora didn't go on auto to kill them, but he knew they were a threat. They did the rest on their own to make it a worthy effort for him to fight them.

I won't take away the blame that they deserve to have for those actions, nevertheless they had in front of them a very stubborn keyblade wielder who would not have accepted to negotiate...

He would've negotiated with them, but he hardly had the chance - because they weren't willing to negotiate.
The closest thing to negotiation they had was over Kairi, and that was just twisting a knife in Sora's Heart.
He did try to reach for them - he'd have left Demyx alone but Demyx attacked first at the Colesium.
Xaldin negotiated - over which most important item to take from Beast.
Heck, even Jack agreed to do the whole Parley or whatever with Luxord - but Luxord was the one who broke it.
And then, even at the very bitter end - with Mickey and Riku all ready to cut Xemnas's head off - Sora tried reaching for him, only to be pushed aside.
Sora didn't really let the Organization have it until they deserved it.

What I mean, is, getting a heart for the Organization is vital, they can survive without it but they 'suffer' to lack or it, or else they wouldn't be looking at it this way. With all the keyblade wielder in 'activity' against them, what others choice did they have?

To be honest, according to Nomura, Sora slaying them with the Keyblade is doing them a favor.
Not only will he end their misery, but seeing how many Heartless he slew - it's quite possible their Hearts were already 'purified' from the Darkness.
Then, Nomura says that if the Nobody is slain too, the Somebody is reunited (part of why I say Sora and Kairi aren't 'hole' yet, because it was a semi roundabout way).
So don't make it sound like he just murdered them, in the novels, Namine goes as far as saying that [spoiler]Axel was whole now since he was reunited with his Heart at his death[/spoiler] - thank you Sora, and I've also heard rumors saying that happened to Demyx too for reasons this and that.
So it's not as black and white as you make it seem.
For all we know, save for Xemnas (whose Heartless was still inside Riku) and Roxas, the rest of the Organization fullfilled their desires and are now whole again!

[Rufus Shinra]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

All I can say is our views of evil are very different, and I'd rather stay away from people you'd deem as 'leaders' O:

Well, I try to not see characters as evil or good, considering those word are fully based on point of view, as sample Zack from FFVII, working with Shinra etc would see Barret as someone evil. From his side, Barret being leader of Avalanche and all would see Zack as an evil SOLDIER. Evil is just a matter of viewpoint, Squall in FF8 said something on this of very true, it's not good or evil who differentiate enemies, it's viewpoint.

As for leaders, having leaders quality doesn't mean you'd be the best one as a leader. For sample, both candidate to be President in USA have leaders quality, still one is better than the other (who though, as european I wouldn't know)

He didn't go 'you must all die!' right off the bat. He was willing to fight them, yes, but even when they met Demyx, already after meeting Xaldin, they didn't go right for his head. Demyx was then under orders to use violence to get Roxas out, so he did.
And before that was Xaldin.
Sora didn't go on auto to kill them, but he knew they were a threat. They did the rest on their own to make it a worthy effort for him to fight them.

Xaldin was working for his purpose, I don't say it's good, but it's understandable. Sora could have gone "Why do you act this way and do not request help instead?" Really, just that. Sora never really show compassion for them, or yes he did, after killing them, but that's not really what they expected...
But the one I blame is Yen Sid, his speech on Nobody was totally biased. His evil smirk makes me doubt of his intention also...

Also, I'd like to add something, the Organization also did things we can see as good. 358/2 Days. We don't know all of the plot, but we know that Roxas travel from world to world to exterminate heartless for their cause. Seen like that, they helped the worlds. Sora could have tried to do the same things. Roxas, when we really listen to what he says, he didn't leave the Organization because he thought they were wrong, he left them for discovering facts in himself, and also we can see Luxord who is like "Roxas! How could you...?" meaning that Roxas was maybe even in friendly term with some members others than Axel, and we know that Roxas is not evil.

He would've negotiated with them, but he hardly had the chance - because they weren't willing to negotiate.
The closest thing to negotiation they had was over Kairi, and that was just twisting a knife in Sora's Heart.
He did try to reach for them - he'd have left Demyx alone but Demyx attacked first at the Colesium.
Xaldin negotiated - over which most important item to take from Beast.
Heck, even Jack agreed to do the whole Parley or whatever with Luxord - but Luxord was the one who broke it.
And then, even at the very bitter end - with Mickey and Riku all ready to cut Xemnas's head off - Sora tried reaching for him, only to be pushed aside.
Sora didn't really let the Organization have it until they deserved it.

Demyx didn't really attack first, I think Sora kind of mocked him or something, and the orders were 'if the subject do not cooperate', and Sora was really not in mood to even consider this possibility.
For Xaldin, I agree he went far, as for Luxord, it's his nature, I mean he is a 'player' When Xigbar appeared in front of Sora at HB, at the beggining, did he need to take his Keyblade and yell "MOVE!!" Xigbar didn't even try to attack me, you can't tell me that Sora was willing to discuss.

As for Xemnas, indeed Sora tried to speak, after he nearly killed him, maybe Xemnas was not in mood to discuss at this moment. Before the battle, they only threatened him.

To be honest, according to Nomura, Sora slaying them with the Keyblade is doing them a favor.
Not only will he end their misery, but seeing how many Heartless he slew - it's quite possible their Hearts were already 'purified' from the Darkness.
Then, Nomura says that if the Nobody is slain too, the Somebody is reunited (part of why I say Sora and Kairi aren't 'hole' yet, because it was a semi roundabout way).
So don't make it sound like he just murdered them, in the novels, Namine goes as far as saying that [spoiler]Axel was whole now since he was reunited with his Heart at his death[/spoiler] - thank you Sora, and I've also heard rumors saying that happened to Demyx too for reasons this and that.
So it's not as black and white as you make it seem.
For all we know, save for Xemnas (whose Heartless was still inside Riku) and Roxas, the rest of the Organization fullfilled their desires and are now whole again!

Hum, well, for you know Xehanort's Heartless has been kind of killed when Ansem made explodes the Kingdom Hearts or something like that... Don't remember where it was confirmed, but I know it's, 99% sure... Xehanort is also alive at KH2 end, this is this way, pretty easy to guess KH3 plot...

But yet, I don't think it was exactly their desire, who they were are kind of, dead to say. I mean, for sample, Xemnas do not remained himself in the process, it's Xehanort who 'reborn', not Xemnas, and Xemnas's personality was kind of different of Xehanort's... I of course see what you mean, but I just think Sora could have gone another, and better way.

[OmniChaos]

Originally Posted by Lezard Valeth

That is why I don't think he is really "evil", it's once he was alone that his priority seemed to shift. Actually, obtaining power and 'healing' all Nobody can both be done with the same Kingdom Hearts, I really think he was honest in wanting to give a heart to all Nobody, doing this didn't stop him from getting power.
When he left his 'power hungry' side show, all others member were dead. It's not like he could share his 'happiness', if I could say, with all others members, he was the last one, the only people to who he could talk are those who killed all of his members. I think Xemnas was pretty much 'hating' them, in the way a nobody can, and it's why he so much insisted on getting more power.

I could believe that he wanted to help the other nobodies, had it not been for him basically condemning Axel and Roxas to their deaths...
I think when Xemnas says he wants to heal all Nobodies, it's just a pretty speech to keep the nobodies and the Org under his fingers... Whether or not he might have actually given the hearts to the nobodies, I don't know, but I am sure that was not his main goal...

Possible, I never saw Marluxia as evil like I said. I am more inclined to think he has a leader spirit, and thought he'd be more efficient and faster than Xemnas, leading him to do what we know.
But, I am not sure, like I said, I think Xemnas is not that much evil...

Well, power corrupts... =/
From what I have seen, I personally believe Marluxia is the second strongest Org member... He has more than shown it...

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Lezard Valeth

Xaldin was working for his purpose, I don't say it's good, but it's understandable. Sora could have gone "Why do you act this way and do not request help instead?" Really, just that. Sora never really show compassion for them, or yes he did, after killing them, but that's not really what they expected...
But the one I blame is Yen Sid, his speech on Nobody was totally biased. His evil smirk makes me doubt of his intention also...

...by the time Sora got there, Xaldin was already manipulating Beast and filling him with Darkness. The instant they saw Xaldin, he threw a Darkness-enraged Beast at them. Why should they try and negotiate with someone who clearly isn't interested?

Also, I'd like to add something, the Organization also did things we can see as good. 358/2 Days. We don't know all of the plot, but we know that Roxas travel from world to world to exterminate heartless for their cause. Seen like that, they helped the worlds. Sora could have tried to do the same things.

Sora did do the same thing. In both KH1 and KH2 o_o He just didn't go about creating more Heartless as he went.

Roxas, when we really listen to what he says, he didn't leave the Organization because he thought they were wrong, he left them for discovering facts in himself, and also we can see Luxord who is like "Roxas! How could you...?" meaning that Roxas was maybe even in friendly term with some members others than Axel, and we know that Roxas is not evil.

Luxord was mind-****ing Sora. It has no relevance to inter-Nobody relations.

Demyx didn't really attack first, I think Sora kind of mocked him or something,

In HB. When they met first in the Colesium, Demyx was the one who started it.

and the orders were 'if the subject do not cooperate', and Sora was really not in mood to even consider this possibility.

No, it was "if the subject fails to respond", namely - if Roxas doesn't wake up, beat Sora up.

For Xaldin, I agree he went far, as for Luxord, it's his nature, I mean he is a 'player' When Xigbar appeared in front of Sora at HB, at the beggining, did he need to take his Keyblade and yell "MOVE!!" Xigbar didn't even try to attack me, you can't tell me that Sora was willing to discuss.

...they just sent Heartless and Nobodies at HB! Leon and Sora fought the Nobodies they sent off! Why should he be nice to them?!

As for Xemnas, indeed Sora tried to speak, after he nearly killed him, maybe Xemnas was not in mood to discuss at this moment. Before the battle, they only threatened him.

.........you're ignoring everything the Organization - under Xemnas's Orders - have done until then. Sora still reaching out to him at that point doesn't make Sora a meanie or Xemnas rightful to turn away, it only brings Sora out as half a saint, still reaching out to him despite it all.

Hum, well, for you know Xehanort's Heartless has been kind of killed when Ansem made explodes the Kingdom Hearts or something like that...

no. It just means Riku regained his own Body.

But yet, I don't think it was exactly their desire, who they were are kind of, dead to say. I mean, for sample, Xemnas do not remained himself in the process, it's Xehanort who 'reborn', not Xemnas, and Xemnas's personality was kind of different of Xehanort's... I of course see what you mean, but I just think Sora could have gone another, and better way.

I think so too, but under the given circumstances, he tried, and had them spit in his face.

[*TwilightNight*]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

You brought most of these examples yourself, which is why I don't see how you can say that. And those're only the examples we've seen, keep in mind the Organization's been around for a long time before and did a lot of things we didn't get to see during.

They chased after Beast in order to try and turn him into a Heartless to get his Nobody and Heart.
They turned the dragon in the Land of Dragons into a Heartless, and later on we fight the biggest Dragon Nobody EVER at TWTNW.
They scattered mayhem throughout Port Royal.
They were the ones who pulled Jafar's lamp out of imprisonment.

They go after the living alright, otherwise they can't make sure they'll have either an army nor enough Hearts to make KH. No one ever said everyone else around them was perfect and Sora sure as heck doesn't trust Jack, at least not anymore.

but it was still horrible, you're missing the point. They don't need to tear down the whole worlds to be evil, and in fact, another singular crime after singular crime like that are more horrible, in my mind.
It's effectively breaking down the 'statistics' into the singular cases involved, which is what we get shown in KH2 - which in a way is perfect to show why Sora would want to kick their arses, since he saves his friends, not the multiverse.

You just stated their evil for they have no conscious or means to care about anyone else.

First of all, show me prove that they go after the living and that they don't have a swarm and army enough of Heartless around to fulfill their goal, then you can talk. From what I understand, by KH2, and considering most of the Organization missions in 358/2 Days seem to be killing Heartless, their KH was already in the way of finishing, and they just needed the extra push to complete. Show me that they ripped hearts out of humans, and I'll give. And if they did, it sure wasn't a problem and worthless enough not to mention AT ALL throughout the game, even for the heroes to give more of a reason. I guess people themselves aren't worth mentioning, hmm.

And considering Sora doesn't trust Jack, he surely doesn't mind pairing up with and joining him, and be astounded by pirates. Jack could easily also have broken a parley, bend it, we know he's capable of it, and the pirates actually brought mayhem in Port Royal in the first place by their own actions. Compared to what they did, despite not shown (don't know why, they make them appear more "good"), and in the reality of the situation, Luxord was the lesser evil. How does crime against crime work to you?

What you listed, and the rest after this post, is barely anything to go by concerning the fact they are beings without hearts, and other than Xaldin and mostly Saïx, who I suspect made their own actions (Saïx did announce that he captured Kairi for them in a FM scene, so that wasn't even a order in the first place), that wasn't as cruel as they could've gotten. The fact is, they didn't affect the worlds, most of it centered on Sora's group, and there weren't any other citizens involved. I think the Organization knew what they were doing, they know Sora could defeat Heartless, as gigantic as they are, and they know the power he wielded. So in their minds, it probably wasn't much, as Roxas could handle it, maybe. The two big Heartless ones were created to be defeated right off as seen, the rest of the Heartless are on their own and exist already. The Dragon at TWTNW shouldn't even be brought here, because at that point, it was Xemnas alone, and it was his world.

You're also placing those crimes in a singular point of view as well. I merely went and studied the actual actions, in comparison, and what they did, wasn't that atrocious to the point where they really had to be destroyed, especially with the situation they were in.

Which comes to:

How could they be evil for something they have never chosen to go through? Unless they had the choice to lose their hearts or not, it wasn't their fault to go down a path a random Heartless chose for them. So if you lost your heart without choosing to, and devoid of feelings, empty, not really experiencing or really getting your actions, and then a chance presented itself to gain it, you will call yourself evil?

There's also the fact to know, that Xemnas was a hard leader, if orders are to be go against, they will die. Be deemed traitors. Turned into Dusks. They have no other place to go or to be. Even Axel conceded when the threat was given to him, and at times, even wanted to go back after he was called on betrayal, yet he just didn't find it in himself to hurt Roxas. If it wasn't for that precise order of termination that he didn't do, Axel would have never left the Organization by will. Roxas never would have left the Organization by will if it wasn't for the secrets and mystery that surrounded him, and his search for answers (we'll see more of this in 358/2 Days, especially if they did "bad things" like they have in KH2, but for now, that's how it remains). Even Naminé, who suffered through Castle Oblivion, and have more reason to hate them, she doesn't, and didn't say they were evil or good, and didn't seem to have a grudge, because being one, she understands. Understand even with the actions set and done.

Sora never fully understood, even when he mentioned it himself to Demyx. You would think it is common sense.

No, there wasn't. They rammed through anyone on their way.

Yes, there was, the game just skipped the chances. That isn't the characters' fault. Axel could've easily made a back and forth intermediary between them (if Nomura had brains, he would've made Axel, as cunning as he is, since he had spoken to Saïx at times, to offer some kind of other idea if Sora helping them can be done) since he uncovered the plans to Sora, and yet even then, you could see that it was refused by his actions after, when the plan itself wasn't even harmful. There was no negotiation there, as just the thought of helping the Organization was the worst for him, even when he was just doing what he had always done. Fight Heartless. Hell, how could the Organization be so sure if Sora was even willing to help them? There could've been a risk involved if somehow it was decided that misuse if KH was going to happen by Xemnas, or some other reason to stop and destroy what they worked hard for anyway. Sora was helping them, even, and didn't find a problem with killing Heartless, as I said. He just didn't know the Org. was involved, and right there, is enough reason to halt without hearing the real plan of why.

In the second meeting of Demyx, nobody pulled out their weapons, and the guy was mostly being cool. In fact, Sora even chit-chatted while there was chaos going on. If persuaded right, Demyx could've spilled easily, and instead of asking what was going on HB to get more information, to get more of the Org., Sora instead, chose to waste time to mock him, something that he NEVER had done to any of the members except Demyx, for some reason or other.

If there was a chance of negotiations, they were both at fault. By the time of TWTNW, it was too late, as apparently, he stepped into their territory to destroy what they all wanted and made, and what we can predict, years. If Xemnas was the core problem, it would've been best to go to the core problem and get rid of it.

And again, all they could offer Xemnas after all that when asked is, "You mess up our worlds." And that's it? Wow, what the hell? That's it. That's why they had to destroy KH? That's why they had to stop them from completing that goal? It would've made better sense if Riku replied with simply, "You."

It was just faults in plotting.

I think he subconcsiously had enough reason to hate anyone in the Org based on CoM, but that's just me.

He doesn't even remember that. And even if he did after the whole Naminé returning situation, it was still unknown to him until he finally reached Xemnas or even hinted at. The traitors acted on their own, made their coup, and in turn, stepped away from the Organization's goal as a whole to make their plans. They broke away, and whatever happened in that castle, wasn't to be blamed on the rest who had nothing to do with Marluxia's ploy.

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

To be honest, according to Nomura, Sora slaying them with the Keyblade is doing them a favor.
Not only will he end their misery, but seeing how many Heartless he slew - it's quite possible their Hearts were already 'purified' from the Darkness.
Then, Nomura says that if the Nobody is slain too, the Somebody is reunited (part of why I say Sora and Kairi aren't 'hole' yet, because it was a semi roundabout way).

- thank you Sora, and I've also heard rumors saying that happened to Demyx too for reasons this and that.
So it's not as black and white as you make it seem.
For all we know, save for Xemnas (whose Heartless was still inside Riku) and Roxas, the rest of the Organization fullfilled their desires and are now whole again!

So in other words, even with all that you put, the Organization gets a present for their actions ANYWAY. For Nomura to do that, the director might've known the real situation of things. KH2 was simply Sora's point of view, the hero's, and with 358/2 Days, we'll see the real.

It makes me wonder, if they can come back, what was the whole point of getting through KH2 and destroying their planned chance, and the members themselves in the first place? Seemed pointless, doesn't it? And Xehanort with his Heratless detsroyed in KH1 or in CoM, and his Nobody in KH2, Xemnas didn't really die either, and is bound to bring one final problem in KH3.

In the end, the Organization even truly WINS. Who would've thought.

[Tervenaq]

Originally Posted by Sora~THE KING

They're killing people for thier hearts...To make Kingdom Hearts.Wich makes them bad...for trying to take over peoples' hearts.____________________________________
You are the one who will open the door to light...

They arent really killing anyone except Beast. Which was wrong. But to open kingdom Hearts they killed Heartless. Not so bad imo.

[Metalmanmac1]

Originally Posted by Stealth.Baker

I never saw them as evil. Of course, they did wrong things. However, I wonder if lack of a heart can cloud your moral perception? In saying that perhaps they didn't really mean to do wrong things, but because they didn't have a heart they couldn't really tell right from wrong? I dunno, just a theory I suppose.

thats wat i think, they didnt have a hearts so they couldn't feel that wat they were doing was wrong, they just wanted hearts...

[Tervenaq]

Sorry for the double post, but I can argue that only some of the Organization was evil. They just had some issues with going about what they wanted. They dont have hearts, so they cant actually be aligned with either side. They wanted hearts, and they did what they wanted.

Larxene: Evil. She liked to cause pain and just wanted to kill Sora.

Marluxia: Manipulated Namine, forced Sora to do things, and had plots to overthrow his Leader who kept the peace. Not something a good person would do.

Xemnas: Ok...pretty evil. He was willing to relinquish everyone that helped him get to his goal, just to achieve it. A person who uses people is not good. He also is greatly sadistic. Did you see what he did to Sora in battle? "Can you spare...a heart?" and tries to rip out his heart. He also calls upon the powers of hate and rage to fuel his strength. Can we truly call these attributes of those who are evil?

Suprisingly enough, it seems those who are evil, are the leaders of most of the Organizations affairs. Marluxia in Castle Oblivion and Xemnas all together.

[Organization_42]

Originally Posted by Lezard Valeth

Roxas, when we really listen to what he says, he didn't leave the Organization because he thought they were wrong, he left them for discovering facts in himself, and also we can see Luxord who is like "Roxas! How could you...?" meaning that Roxas was maybe even in friendly term with some members others than Axel, and we know that Roxas is not evil.

Yeah, and what was the Organization's response when Roxas left to find out more about himself? Send Axel to kill him. Nice guys, huh?

Originally Posted by OmniChaos

I could believe that he wanted to help the other nobodies, had it not been for him basically condemning Axel and Roxas to their deaths...
I think when Xemnas says he wants to heal all Nobodies, it's just a pretty speech to keep the nobodies and the Org under his fingers... Whether or not he might have actually given the hearts to the nobodies, I don't know, but I am sure that was not his main goal...

I agree 100% with this post.

Originally Posted by *TwilightNight*

First of all, show me prove that they go after the living and that they don't have a swarm and army enough of Heartless around to fulfill their goal, then you can talk. From what I understand, by KH2, and considering most of the Organization missions in 358/2 Days seem to be killing Heartless, their KH was already in the way of finishing, and they just needed the extra push to complete. Show me that they ripped hearts out of humans, and I'll give. And if they did, it sure wasn't a problem and worthless enough not to mention AT ALL throughout the game, even for the heroes to give more of a reason. I guess people themselves aren't worth mentioning, hmm.

There's not a lot of proof exactly, but there are suspicions. Yen Sid told Sora, Donald, and Goofy that their actions in KH1 "prevented an immense effusion of Heartless" and that "the Heartless are fewer". If that's the case, there's a suspiciously large amount running amok in KH2 and 358/2 Days (based on what we know of that game). Plus we know that Xaldin was trying to turn Beast into a Heartless/Nobody, and based on what Belle and the servants told Sora, he had targeted the Beast long before the trio showed up. So their actions in the other worlds aren't entirely centered on Sora.

Then there's the minor incident in Agrabah with Jafar being released. We don't hear a lot about the Organization's involvement, and from outside the storyline, it was probably just thrown in there so that we didn't forget that the Nobodies were still the real bad guys. But inside the storyline, it heightens the evilness of their actions. What people don't seem to understand is that the members of Organization XIII are not your typical Disney villains. They do not kill others and cause mass chaos in a way that is outright and obvious. They manipulate people and events to make sure things go in their favor. Look at how the plot of Chain of Memories played out. Larxene, Axel, and Marluxia taunted Sora and got him convinced that they were holding his girlfriend prisoner. (Here's a classic example of Sora not thinking things through. Why would these strangers hold his friend hostage, and why are they giving him hints about how to rescue her? For kicks?) Then we find out that their evil plans are not so straightforward: they're using Namine to manipulate Sora so that he will become their puppet and do what they want him to do.

It's the same with what happens in Agrabah. All they do is send somebody to pay the merchant to keep his mouth shut. But what would have happened if the merchant had kept his mouth shut, and Iago hadn't confessed to Sora? Jafar would have made a wreck of Agrabah, he might have set Heartless on the civilians, and more hearts would have gone to Xemnas. You see how they operate? They haven't actually set Jafar free, so everyone blames the merchant. But covering it up in the interest of getting more hearts was just as devious; it just wasn't as obvious.

And about Roxas' missions in 358/2 Days- well, that's what he was being ordered to do, because he had the Keybalde. We haven't been told what the other members were ordered to do.

Originally Posted by *TwilightNight*

And considering Sora doesn't trust Jack, he surely doesn't mind pairing up with and joining him, and be astounded by pirates. Jack could easily also have broken a parley, bend it, we know he's capable of it, and the pirates actually brought mayhem in Port Royal in the first place by their own actions. Compared to what they did, despite not shown (don't know why, they make them appear more "good"), and in the reality of the situation, Luxord was the lesser evil. How does crime against crime work to you?

Sora does tell Jack he doesn't trust pirates in general, but I think he was more referring to Barbossa. They seem to be on perfectly friendly terms in the second visit.

As a Pirates of the Caribbean fanatic, may I just point out that Jack is not quite as evil as you're making him out to be? In the movies, it becomes clear that he doesn't like to kill people, unlike certain Organization members. Remember in our other debate, *TwilightNight*, when we were discussing Axel's hand in Vexen and Zexion's deaths, and you talked about how he obviously enjoyed it? Jack is just the opposite. He's the one more likely to negotiate. He's a trickster, no doubt about it, but his motives are not always clear at first glance, as Will and Elizabeth learned over the course of the trilogy. In the first movie, soldiers were hammering at the door of the blacksmith's shop, wanting to arrest Jack, and the only thing standing in his way of escape was Will. Jack could've easily shot him and ran for it. But he didn't, instead he was practically pleading with Will to move. Then at the end of the second movie, he decided not to abandon his crew and came back to help them fight off the monstrous Kraken.

Jack has stabbed Will and Elizabeth in the back in the past. If Sora had been a character in the movies, he probably would've gotten stabbed too. The thing to remember is that it's not a permanent betrayal. He always has an ulterior motive, and his goal is to get as many people out alive as possible. (As long as he's one of the survivors, that is.) In sharp contrast, the Organization members seem to look after themselves first and foremost. Axel was the only one who showed a real interest in helping someone outside of himself, and that was because Roxas helped him forget that he didn't have a heart at times.

Originally Posted by *TwilightNi