The Keyblade's Voice

[Awesome Ansem]

alright i've been reading through your guys' debate, and I gotta say I'm on SufferingAngel's side. Kingdom key obviously didn't go to riku. The awakening obviously has something to do with the keyblade. etc... Lezard's points are just filled with flaws. Here's one for example:

How could Xehanort opens the door of Radiant Garden without Keyblade? Apparently, there is some people possessing special powers, Xehanort and Sora seem to be those.

You can't just assume xehanort opened that door with special powers. Nomura has even said so himself that how xehanort opened that door is one of the biggest mysteries in the kh universe, since a keyblade should be required.

Yes, but : The KK had to go to Riku, lack of chance because of various reason it's Sora who got it. Latter Riku retakes it, but fails to keep it and Sora then definitely becomes the true owner of it.

Riku retakes it? I wasn't aware he ever had it in the first place. If the keyblade was riku's, why didn't riku have it at the beginning of the game? because his heart went to darkness you say? Why didn't he get it before that, then? Riku's never even heard of the keyblade untill sora showed it to him, so I wouldn't say that kingdom key ever belonged to riku.

and I really don't have enough time or will power to do this to all of your posts.

[Lezard Valeth]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

Ah, this is nice. Saying the Darkness doesn't matter in this aspect is actually denying the very journal entry which said Riku is the original Keyblade Master. And if Darkness didn't matter, why did the Keyblade switch owners - unless it was Sora's to begin with and Riku was destined to Dawn if not Darkness as posed in KH1?

You don't understand my point. The darkness doesn't matter in its nature, it matters in its effect. What has been the effect of Darkness on Riku? It weakened his heart on the moment and made him disappear from the Island. Now, if Riku had controlled the Darkness at this moment, and if he didn't disappear, would the Keyblade have gone to Sora? No.

If I could say, it's like the Keyblade doesn't care if their wielder is using Darkness or Light. Or explain why Mickey's keyblade is the one of Darkness Realm.

The door to the Heart of the world is far different than the Door to Light, I'd say. Also with some of the rumors running around saying Xehanort did indeed have a connection to the Keyblade (either by being MX's helper from the KH2:FM+ secret ending or being some crazy mix between MX himself and Terra) I find that even harder to believe. What you're saying in this is actually that the whole point to the Keyblades is a lie.

No. Like you said sooner, having a qualified heart = you get a Keyblade. It was also confirmed by Nomura that there is as many Keyblade as qualified heart.
Now, we could say that without the good heart, there is no Keyblade. Like said many time, the greatest weapon of Sora is his heart. So, what is the Keyblade? Maybe merely a physical incarnation of that power.

It implies that the KK, for sample, is merely "conducting" Sora's power into a weapon and making it easier to use. Xehanort, having super human power, maybe didn't need to put his power under the physical form "keyblade" to use them and used them instinctively. It's just an hypothesis.

Mickey already had a Keyblade in BBS so I doubt he was ever an option. And if indeed both Terra and Ven chose successors, that would mean Sora and Riku were chosen at the same time. It would make sense then that Sora just had his Destati first before Riku, while Riku needed Maleficent's help at first to draw out his own powers. They awoke fully afterwards when he received the Way to Dawn, but that still means he was never meant to have Sora's Keyblade if indeed two Keyblades were handed out.

Yes, but Mickey found the IKK in the Darkness Realm. Now, if Ven chosed Sora, looks kind of possible, he should have received another Keyblade than the KK since Terra chosed Riku for the KK. Why would have the KK spoke to Sora?
Also, it is a fact that Riku was destined to wield the KK. He says it to HB, this Keyblade was destined to him, not Sora.

I'm a firm believer the Keychains come from their owner's Mentality. The Oblivion came from Sora and Riku's bond; the Oathkeeper - from the bond between Sora, and Kairi and Namine; The Keyblades from the worlds - the impression left on him after what happened in said world; The Keyblades from other people like Auron - same with Riku, Kairi and Namine - they represent meeting them.
So more than Terra's Keyblade being unfit for them, it was what he needed, the best weapon for him.

Maybe, but it's still possible Terra's Keyblade is the Kk's true form.

Originally Posted by Awesome Ansem

You can't just assume xehanort opened that door with special powers. Nomura has even said so himself that how xehanort opened that door is one of the biggest mysteries in the kh universe, since a keyblade should be required.

Yes, and? Xehanort having human-keyblade power is not a huge mysteries maybe? It's possible, Xehanort until proved otherwise is one of the most powerful being in KH for now, it's not impossible for him to have that power.

Riku retakes it? I wasn't aware he ever had it in the first place. If the keyblade was riku's, why didn't riku have it at the beginning of the game? because his heart went to darkness you say? Why didn't he get it before that, then? Riku's never even heard of the keyblade untill sora showed it to him, so I wouldn't say that kingdom key ever belonged to riku.

Because he wasn't there, maybe? He left the Island right before the Keyblade arrived and/or his heart was weakened.

He didn't get the Keyblade before that because the keyblade wasn't there and/or needed before that. Listen to Terra's speech and to Riku's speech at Hollow Bastion. Maybe even the journal speak of it.

and I really don't have enough time or will power to do this to all of your posts.

No one force you.

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Lezard Valeth

You don't understand my point. The darkness doesn't matter in its nature, it matters in its effect. What has been the effect of Darkness on Riku? It weakened his heart on the moment and made him disappear from the Island. Now, if Riku had controlled the Darkness at this moment, and if he didn't disappear, would the Keyblade have gone to Sora? No.

We don't know that, since proof of the matter is that by the time Riku did control the Darkness, the Keyblade remained with Sora. More so then Elemental affinity if you would, it's not beyond imagining that the Keyblades have other "preferences" as to their Wielders.

If I could say, it's like the Keyblade doesn't care if their wielder is using Darkness or Light. Or explain why Mickey's keyblade is the one of Darkness Realm.

See said preferences above. Also, it's not really fair seeing how it's not hard to have the strongest Heart in a realm of Heartless and Nobodies.

Yes, but Mickey found the IKK in the Darkness Realm. Now, if Ven chosed Sora, looks kind of possible, he should have received another Keyblade than the KK since Terra chosed Riku for the KK. Why would have the KK spoke to Sora?
Also, it is a fact that Riku was destined to wield the KK. He says it to HB, this Keyblade was destined to him, not Sora.

And he heard it, need I remind you, from Maleficent who really needed to get the KK out of Sora's hands. Add Riku's momentary strength and Sora's weakness, and Riku got the Keyblade.
You know what? Here. I give. I didn't want to link to it again, but I will.
Why Riku isn't the Original Keyblade Master.
Because it'll save me repeating what I wrote there over and over again.

Because he wasn't there, maybe? He left the Island right before the Keyblade arrived and/or his heart was weakened.

He didn't get the Keyblade before that because the keyblade wasn't there and/or needed before that. Listen to Terra's speech and to Riku's speech at Hollow Bastion. Maybe even the journal speak of it.

That, forgive me, is nonsense. The Keyblade follows its owner around wherever it goes. It's not like a tourist missing a bus so it hops the next one that comes aboard. Sora proves it all the time both when he summons the Keyblade - showing it can just pop up whenever it wants, and when people take the Keyblade from him but it returns in the flash of an eye. Had the KK truly wanted Riku, it had went to him.

[Lezard Valeth]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

We don't know that, since proof of the matter is that by the time Riku did control the Darkness, the Keyblade remained with Sora. More so then Elemental affinity if you would, it's not beyond imagining that the Keyblades have other "preferences" as to their Wielders.

No they have not. You say that the Keyblade prefer some element... So, if I listen you, Riku didn't get the Keyblade at DI because he had Darkness (had, not control, you can take a sword in hand if it's the first time of your life you do so you won't control it), and later at HB he could take it to Sora when he was again more in the Darkness? No something is wrong in this.

Sora takes it again latter because of the strength of his heart, nothing more. And it's also why Riku could take it.

See said preferences above. Also, it's not really fair seeing how it's not hard to have the strongest Heart in a realm of Heartless and Nobodies.

The Realm of Darkness is not at all filled with only Heartless and Nobody! First, Nobody are nothingness, explain me how they belong to the Darkness Realm. Second, Nomura said that Mickey had an adventure similar to Sora's one in the Darkness Realm. Explain me how his adventure could be comparable to the one of Sora if there is no people, world, etc.

And he heard it, need I remind you, from Maleficent who really needed to get the KK out of Sora's hands. Add Riku's momentary strength and Sora's weakness, and Riku got the Keyblade.

Which clearly fit with you saying the KK will prefer someone of light... Allso, obviously he heard of it from Maleficient, do you think Sora ever heard of it before getting it? I don't see your point.

You know what? Here. I give. I didn't want to link to it again, but I will.
Why Riku isn't the Original Keyblade Master.
Because it'll save me repeating what I wrote there over and over again.

I didn't read everything in it, but apparently it's the same thing you said in more explained. But it's not because it's an external source that it means it's true, I saw countless source being wrong.

That, forgive me, is nonsense. The Keyblade follows its owner around wherever it goes. It's not like a tourist missing a bus so it hops the next one that comes aboard. Sora proves it all the time both when he summons the Keyblade - showing it can just pop up whenever it wants, and when people take the Keyblade from him but it returns in the flash of an eye. Had the KK truly wanted Riku, it had went to him.

The KK was destined to go to Riku on DI. When Riku disappears, what you mean is that the Keyblade is some kind of super pc which can immediately locate where Riku is in the universe? No, it is not. Riku is not there, what's left? Sora.

Also, Sora making it pop up is normal, the Keyblade i slike always with him, and when he makes it disappears then reappears in his hand, the keyblade is always in the same room than him, or else explain why Riku waited Sora comes to him to claim the KK, why he didn't call it from where he was.

[SufferingAngel]

About the Keyblade "not finding Riku"... Riku disappeared the very same moment Sora received the Keyblade. Unless you want to have me believe it was a second too late, your claim lacks basis.

I've nothing more to add seeing how you all but, well, underestimate the Keyblade in order to prove it was supposed to go to Riku.
The Keyblade finds whomever is most suitable in the universe. How come it could find Riku before the Islands disappeared but couldn't afterwards? It's contradictory and makes no sense whatsoever.
Also, never once in the actual game did they take up on that fact. That one moment in HB - and that's all it was, a moment. Five game minutes later and you're fighting Riku, the KK back in Sora's hand. Also, when Riku was strong enough to get a Keyblade - he didn't get the KK. That's because Sora had it firmly because it's his Keyblade.
I read Jiminy's journal in KH1.
That cockroach has no idea what he's scribbling down in that there journal.

[Awesome Ansem]

He didn't get the Keyblade before that because the keyblade wasn't there and/or needed before that. Listen to Terra's speech and to Riku's speech at Hollow Bastion. Maybe even the journal speak of it.

Then answer me this: If you're saying the keyblade went to sora because it couldn't get to riku, then how did it get to sora? No one brought it to him, so no one would've needed to bring it to riku either. It found sora all by itself, so why didn't it just find riku if it wanted him so badly?

[I<3Roxas]

IIRC, Riku was dropped off in HB after the islands were destroyed right? And also IIRC, he was in the darkness realm or some inbetween place while transitioning worlds, correct? Basically, what I'm saying is Riku phased out of the realm of light, so the keyblade couldn't find him. Evidence of this is that Mickey had to go to the dark realm and get the IKK, it didn't pop into the realm of light for him, so I think the same applies to the KK - it can find anybody, but only if they exist in the realm. I am on the side that the voice in sora's awakening is his heart as I don't recall Roxas having any voice in his, and supposedly, he didn't have a heart. In all significant aspects of their awakenings, I see no differences, except that one.

As for the forms of the keyblade, I'm pretty sure the KK is the standard form of the Realm of Light keyblade - not only do game notes say this, but in every important scene, it's the KK shown, not some other one. Also, the IKK is exactly that - the inverse kingdom key. Mickey hasn't had his keyblade change forms at all, and it seems to me that he should've if the keyblade chains were real in teh game and not just a gameplay mechanic.

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by I<3Roxas

IIRC, Riku was dropped off in HB after the islands were destroyed right? And also IIRC, he was in the darkness realm or some inbetween place while transitioning worlds, correct? Basically, what I'm saying is Riku phased out of the realm of light, so the keyblade couldn't find him. Evidence of this is that Mickey had to go to the dark realm and get the IKK, it didn't pop into the realm of light for him, so I think the same applies to the KK - it can find anybody, but only if they exist in the realm. I am on the side that the voice in sora's awakening is his heart as I don't recall Roxas having any voice in his, and supposedly, he didn't have a heart. In all significant aspects of their awakenings, I see no differences, except that one.

As for the forms of the keyblade, I'm pretty sure the KK is the standard form of the Realm of Light keyblade - not only do game notes say this, but in every important scene, it's the KK shown, not some other one. Also, the IKK is exactly that - the inverse kingdom key. Mickey hasn't had his keyblade change forms at all, and it seems to me that he should've if the keyblade chains were real in teh game and not just a gameplay mechanic.

Again, the difference in time between when Riku disappeared and Sora getting the Keyblade is close to nothing. I find it hard to believe that's why the KK went to Sora and not Riku, especially seeing how well fitted for the role Sora turned out to be. Seems too logical for it to be a coincidence.
Also, if it was supposed to go to Riku, why didn't it hurry up to save him? It did that for Sora when he needed it the most; it would be sad if it turned out it 'just missed Riku'.
Now I'll say what so many people have told me before about stuff and that I personally hate having said to me, but - what're the odds they actually thought about Ven at the time to have that voice be him and not the Keyblade's? Slim to none I say but time will tell.

As for the Keychains, I doubt it's 'just' a game mechanic. Sora goes through a lot in his journey and in a way, Riku's Keyblade changes forms too - from the Soul Eater to the Way to Dawn (unless you say the SE isn't a Keyblade in which forget it =P). Also, the ways to get a Keychain are too symbolic and meaningful (like, getting the Oblivion in both games - it's directly related to Riku in both cases).
I prefer to think of it as Sora's own unique strength, his 'proof of Masterhood' if you would. At the very least that's his own unique strength of Heart, letting himself be affected, changed by the people he meets and the events that happen to him - and eventually become stronger sine every Keyblade is stronger than the last one (well, most of them).
Proofs to back this up are

1. Not all the Keyblades posses the same levels of strength and posses abilities and qualities befitting the event that created the Keychain or the person that inspired Sora to obtain it. The Oblivion, for instance, is mostly pure strength while neglecting magic, something which seems to make sense for Riku; The Oathkeeper isn't that string physically but it has many support traits, a quality which fits Kairi and Namine; the Keyblade you get in the Land of Dragons prefers magic and techniques over pure strength as befitting some of the warriors there; etc. Then we have Sweet Memories and we look at Pooh and we understand why it literally has zero abilities. It just makes too much sense for me to diss it.
2. Terra in KH2:FM+. His Keyblade had a unique ability as well in that it could change sizes and shapes at will. This is not unlike the Keychains, while Terra is capable of doing it himself as opposed to Sora who lets himself be affected by others.

Mickey himself could've actually changed Keychains as opposed to Keyblades, seeing how he originally had one as shown in the BBS clips. While the same applies here as it does to Ven how it was so long ago they probably never thought about it, we saw the IKK first. Also the Keychains existed in KH1, so while they might not have thought about giving Mickey a different blade, the explanation itself sticks even 'back then'.

[Awesome Ansem]

(to i<3Roxas) I see your point about kingdom key not being able to reach riku when he's in the realm of darkness, because kingdom key is a keyblade of the light realm. But why didn't it go to him when he was on destiny islands? or in traverse town when sora was showing it to him? or any other time when he was in the realm of light?

also, many people speculate that roxas has a heart, and that he is a giant exception to average nobody. You can read this thread if you want to know more about this:http://forums.khinsider.com/future-k...has-heart.html

[SufferingAngel]

Probably because Riku already "fell to the Darkness" by then, but hey - doesn't that disqualify him according to the very Journal entry that says Darkness was why he didn't get it in the first place? (Seriously - don't read it and you won't see where him being the 'original Master' is coming from. From experience *has only thoroughly read KH1's Journal recently*)

Roxas already is a huge exception to a Nobody. Even AtW admits it. As for him having a Heart, Axel all but says it in KH2:FM+ and while it is possible he meant him having returned to Sora, we won't know for sure until stated clearly.

[Awesome Ansem]

exactly. (about both points). stupid jiminy's journal is the only "proof" that people can point out about riku being the intended weilder of kingdom key. otherwise there has been absolutely no evidence to support that claim.

[SufferingAngel]

Seeing how Jiminy says to the bitter end Sora and Riku are "rivals" in KH1 even when Sora shouts at Leon that the reason he's going back to HB is because he has a friend to save, I don't trust Jiminy nor his journal =D

If you want any proof he's truly evil, just look at what he puts Sora through in KH2 with the journal missions XD

[Awesome Ansem]

It's pretty bad when you have to question whether or not something is cannon to the game, in the game itself.

[Lezard Valeth]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

About the Keyblade "not finding Riku"... Riku disappeared the very same moment Sora received the Keyblade. Unless you want to have me believe it was a second too late, your claim lacks basis.

I've nothing more to add seeing how you all but, well, underestimate the Keyblade in order to prove it was supposed to go to Riku.
The Keyblade finds whomever is most suitable in the universe. How come it could find Riku before the Islands disappeared but couldn't afterwards? It's contradictory and makes no sense whatsoever.
Also, never once in the actual game did they take up on that fact. That one moment in HB - and that's all it was, a moment. Five game minutes later and you're fighting Riku, the KK back in Sora's hand. Also, when Riku was strong enough to get a Keyblade - he didn't get the KK. That's because Sora had it firmly because it's his Keyblade.
I read Jiminy's journal in KH1.
That cockroach has no idea what he's scribbling down in that there journal.

How do I underestimate the Keyblade? If they Keyblade has to go to a place, it's not going to make a little journey through the universe to search someone else. There is plenty of evidence in game saying a Keyblade is not some kind of traveler like you pretend it is? Did you already see a Keyblade travel through the universe? If yes, thanks to say me when. If no, then what you say is unfounded.

Originally Posted by Awesome Ansem

Then answer me this: If you're saying the keyblade went to sora because it couldn't get to riku, then how did it get to sora? No one brought it to him, so no one would've needed to bring it to riku either. It found sora all by itself, so why didn't it just find riku if it wanted him so badly?

The Keyblade was programed to end up on DI. T DI, not at HB, not at TT, anywhere else but on DI. Why? Go ask Terra, I am not in his mind.

Oh, as for what is written in the Journal, if you prefer to believe your theory to what is stated as canon in game, it's your choice. But whatever you say, the Journal is canon and is one of the best source we can use, if because you don't like what is written in you don't consider it canon, it's not really right.

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Lezard Valeth

How do I underestimate the Keyblade? If they Keyblade has to go to a place, it's not going to make a little journey through the universe to search someone else. There is plenty of evidence in game saying a Keyblade is not some kind of traveler like you pretend it is? Did you already see a Keyblade travel through the universe? If yes, thanks to say me when. If no, then what you say is unfounded.

Oh, yeah, here's a time - when it found Sora and Riku on DI. It went that far, why couldn't it have done the same?

The Keyblade was programed to end up on DI. T DI, not at HB, not at TT, anywhere else but on DI. Why? Go ask Terra, I am not in his mind.

Oh, as for what is written in the Journal, if you prefer to believe your theory to what is stated as canon in game, it's your choice. But whatever you say, the Journal is canon and is one of the best source we can use, if because you don't like what is written in you don't consider it canon, it's not really right.

...you speak of canon and yet you treat Terra choosing Riku over Sora as fact. Have a small amount of common sense please. Either you stick to the canon or you theorize. You can't really mix them together.

Originally Posted by Awesome Ansem

It's pretty bad when you have to question whether or not something is cannon to the game, in the game itself.

Well, I wouldn't so much call it 'canon' as much as 'misleading'. Jiminy, while being there all the time, doesn't seem to be 'getting it' as much as he should've. Thus while he does try to tell the story, he can't tell it truthfully. The whole concept of other Masters and Wielders came after that Journal entry was writte, and even Mickey with his own Keyblade - came afterwards.
I don't think this is canon as much as trying to give a misleading point until further points were made in the games - namely, that there isn't only one Keyblade Master, thus Riku taking it from Sora doesn't mean it's 'his', or that just because he's a Keyblade Master meant he owns the KK.

It was also "canon" in the first game that the one who wrote the Ansem Reports was indeed AtW. That proved to be false, seeing how not only it was a Heartless, it wasn't even Ansem's Heartless but our "Xehanort".
Why can't the same be said about this? Just because it was never bluntly said? That's where I say stop letting yourself be spoon-fed and accepting things "just because they're canon". There's enough 'canon' from KH1 that was contradicted afterwards; why can't this be just another one of these things? Kingdom Hearts loves toying with the people who play in it; that's part of the charm though and what keeps us hanging and begging for more.