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Old February 13th, 2009, 02:28 AM   #1
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Default The Discovery of the New World
It is estimated nowadays by most Western scholars that the overall native population of the Americas was estimated to be around a hundred million compared to the seventy million that inhabited Europe during the time. What is your opinion concerning the near-elimination of the Native Americans by disease and war spread by the Europeans? Was it justified considering that the currently most powerful and richest nation on Earth had been founded?
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Old February 13th, 2009, 02:38 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
Of course it's mean and unfair.
Well, all IS fair in love and war.

The Native Americans should have invented guns in all that alone time on the North American continent, instead of totem poles :X
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Old February 13th, 2009, 02:42 AM   #3
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
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Originally Posted by Dogenzaka View Post
Of course it's mean and unfair.
Well, all IS fair in love and war.

The Native Americans should have invented guns in all that alone time on the North American continent, instead of totem poles :X
At least to be fair, the Native Americans should be given props in driving out the first wave of European colonization in the 1000s. One of the most powerful people in early to middle Medieval Age Europe at the time and raided as far as Persia to the east to Britannia in the west and Sicily and Spain in the south, the Vikings.

Plus the Native Americans, especially the Plain Indians, adapted well once they adopted firearms and horses.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
i could go for slaughtering an entire native population right about now, because my ps3 browser felt like backspacing on two paragraphs of thought to no fault of my own. to say i am angry would be an understatement. :-)

i'll just reply to dogen,

so you do believe in survival of the fittest?

also, europeans had more time to develop than native americans
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:15 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
But survival of the fittest is possibly the best way to put it. Only the strong go on while the weak wither away. If you don't adapt, you'll be dead. The Europeans were more adapted than the Natvies. With their idea that they should take over through violence and plenty of weapons to back it up, the Natives didn't really stand a chance. You can say that they were unfair, mean, evil, and such. That doesn't change the fact that the Native Americans had no chance if they didn't change their ways. For some, they didn't and were killed. Others went with the flow and did better.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
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Originally Posted by Ulti View Post
But survival of the fittest is possibly the best way to put it. Only the strong go on while the weak wither away. If you don't adapt, you'll be dead. The Europeans were more adapted than the Natvies. With their idea that they should take over through violence and plenty of weapons to back it up, the Natives didn't really stand a chance. You can say that they were unfair, mean, evil, and such. That doesn't change the fact that the Native Americans had no chance if they didn't change their ways. For some, they didn't and were killed. Others went with the flow and did better.
The Native Americans were forced to innovate on their world with no influence outside of Europe.

I am damned well impressed of the civilizations and societies they managed to pull off all on their own.

Europeans had constant contact and influence from Africa and Asia.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:24 AM   #7
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
Quote:
At least to be fair, the Native Americans should be given props in driving out the first wave of European colonization in the 1000s. One of the most powerful people in early to middle Medieval Age Europe at the time and raided as far as Persia to the east to Britannia in the west and Sicily and Spain in the south, the Vikings.
Yep. I'm a descendant from Viking lineage, actually.

Quote:
also, europeans had more time to develop than native americans
Eh. Europeans were in Europe. Native Americans were in America.
I believe they both had about the same timeframe to develop.
It's just that culture and progress differs between the two.

Quote:
Europeans had constant contact and influence from Africa and Asia.
(I may be a little unknowledgable about this, if they actually DID try it) I'm a little shocked that the Native Americans didn't get curious themselves and try to sail to Asia or Europe.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:27 AM   #8
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogenzaka View Post
Yep. I'm a descendant from Viking lineage, actually.



Eh. Europeans were in Europe. Native Americans were in America.
I believe they both had about the same timeframe to develop.
It's just that culture and progress differs between the two.



(I may be a little unknowledgable about this, if they actually DID try it) I'm a little shocked that the Native Americans didn't get curious themselves and try to sail to Asia or Europe.
The vessels were not advanced enough for transatlantic voyages across the ocean.

Not the same thought in Europe, Africa and Asia, many people attempted and are speculated to have arrived at the Americas. One contender is the Mali Empire and the Basques of Spain.

EDIT: Aren't you Hispanic? What variety of Norse stock are you descended from?
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
Quote:
EDIT: Aren't you Hispanic? What variety of Norse stock are you descended from?
One parent is hispanic, the other is danish/german. :P

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The vessels were not advanced enough for transatlantic voyages across the ocean.
True, but I'm surprised they didn't try to build ships advanced enough to do so like the rest of the world did.

Maybe they were just content with who and where they were.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:38 AM   #10
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:42 AM   #11
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
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Originally Posted by Dogenzaka View Post
One parent is hispanic, the other is danish/german. :P



True, but I'm surprised they didn't try to build ships advanced enough to do so like the rest of the world did.

Maybe they were just content with who and where they were.
Asia was too much politically united while the Americas were not politically divided into seperate nations like in Europe, where the many kingdoms that warred againist each other can provide much more innovation.

Shame Dogen, I thought you might had been part Norman or part Sicilo-Norman, but tis my imagination!
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Old February 13th, 2009, 06:00 AM   #12
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
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Originally Posted by Dogenzaka View Post
Of course it's mean and unfair.
Well, all IS fair in love and war.

The Native Americans should have invented guns in all that alone time on the North American continent, instead of totem poles :X
That wouldn't have been possible, however you may look at it.
They didn't have any source of metal anywhere.

Plus considering that their interpretation of 'guns' were more spiritual, and didn't focus on the glorification of the instant - kill of anything outside of what they already made. You're dealing with Europeans and Native Americans - two different hemispheres, meaning different resources and perceptions of the way things should operate.

Their guns = bows&arrows / spears, etc.
They nurtured fire because it helped them survive, but didn't use it as a weapon source other than as a torch or something.

So its too bad for them, sure.
But there's no way in hell it would have happened on their own.

Also -
Yea, it was shitty what they did.

But there's nothing that anyone could have done about it. You're dealing with a load of people who already experienced going through shit getting out of their home countries. Then they dealt with having the opportunity to settle in thousands of acres of uncharted space. They decided to kill off anything that'd prevent that. It was a selfish way to do it, but we'd honestly have a stagnant way of things if it hadn't have happened in industrial aspects, and social.

It was awful.
Its unethical however you look at it.
Genocide happens through out history.
This is nothing new.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 06:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulti View Post
But survival of the fittest is possibly the best way to put it. Only the strong go on while the weak wither away. If you don't adapt, you'll be dead. The Europeans were more adapted than the Natvies. With their idea that they should take over through violence and plenty of weapons to back it up, the Natives didn't really stand a chance. You can say that they were unfair, mean, evil, and such. That doesn't change the fact that the Native Americans had no chance if they didn't change their ways. For some, they didn't and were killed. Others went with the flow and did better.
Survival of the fittest is only a valid argument if you don't believe in the concept of morality. So unless you think rape, murder, etc. are all acceptable then don't use it in an argument.

We're talking about the morality of the nearly complete destruction of an entire culture. There is literally no moral ideology that can accept that much rape and murder. So if we're talking on a moral level, any moral level, then no it is not okay. Whether or not the destruction of the Indians was right is not a question. Whether the world is better off without them is the real purpose behind this discussion.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 06:33 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
It'd be shitty either way.
They would have given us more of a balanced perception of things.
But we might've not been as industrialized, or capitalistic, even.

No idea.
Someone try to bite my head off and see what other possible examples I can give with an argument.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 06:42 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Discovery of the New World
Had we been kind there would be no America. Had we been reasonable we would be half a nation next to some really scary territory.
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