KHI makes a KH game! Discussion #5: Gameplay and Battle System Design

[king_mickey rule]

I didnt mean that they looked different, I meant that each element only has certain kinds of attacks. Like Ice doesnt have a Surge, thunder doesnt have and Edge, fire doesn't have a Raid, etc.

Oh ok, I see what you mean! Yeah, we should do it like that n.n

[Darkrider S]

Heres a command I just came up with. I'll edit if I come up with any more.

[king_mickey rule]

Guess who's back? Back again? KMR's back.

Sooo I got sick again, therefore couldn't get on anymore and work on the lists I promised. However, I feel better now so expect the promised lists soon!

EDIT: OP is updated.

And the following things are things I've been thinking about a lot lately, our level up system.

About the Heart Grid, I think it's better if we make it so that every ability is learned there. In other words, Scan, Leaf Bracer, etc. should be learned on the Heart Grid imo. Otherwise we're splitting abilities up into two categories, which is kinda useless imo.

Also, about leveling up. Remember how we leveled up in CoM? You gained a level and three options appeared. You could choose which thing to level up.

I wanna suggest something like this. I wanna seperate Stat Boosts, Deck Capacity and the Heart Grid.

So, in other words: The character levels up, three options show up:

1) Stat Boost
2) Deck Capacity
3) Heart Grid

If you choose Stat Boost, then your stats gain a boost, really simple.

If you choose Deck Capacity, you gain one more command slot, also very simple.

If you choose Heart Grid, you'll gain f.e. 5 Heart Points which you can use on the Heart Grid to learn new commands/abilities. Basic Commands such as Fire/Blizzard only cost 1 Heart Point to learn. The more powerful the command is, the more Heart Points it'll cost (in other words, you'll have to save Heart Points in order to learn powerful commands/abilities).

Obviously, you won't have access to the most powerful attacks right away. Like suggested earlier, the Heart Grid will be build up like this (the amount of points are just an example):

Wind Magic: Aero (1HP) -> Gale Shot (5HP) -> Blow Away (10 HP) -> Tornado (20 HP)

OR if you wanna focus more on Physical Wind attacks: Aero (1HP) -> Wind Blitz (5HP) -> Wind Raid (10 HP) -> Wind Slash (20 HP)

The basic commands such as Aero, Fire, Blizzard etc. (this happens during battle, like in BBS). When they reach max. level, you can evolve them into a more stronger command (Aerora, Fira, Blizzara, etc.).

The reason why I sugges this is very simple, no overpowered characters. The player has to concentrate on everything (stats, deck capacity and the Heart Grid) in order to avoid being killed every 2 seconds.

The player however can still choose when to concentrate on something. When the player feels the character's stats are too high, he/she can focus more on commands/deck capacity and this gives a feeling of freedom.

I don't really know how we can make the Heart Grids look like Stations this way though so we might wanna revise that too (or someone can pull it off and make it look like Stations, that would be even better).

This does not change many things. It kinda adds things to what we already had to make it feel like one big level up system.

I mean, before, we basically had several level up systems (commands, heart grid, level ups, abilities learned on the Heart Grid, abilities learned through level up etc.) and it was imo too complicated.

However with the system I suggested now, everything is connected and therefore isn't that complicated anymore imo. What we have now is:

Heart Grid: For learning abilities and commands, points for this are gained through level up.
Commands: level up through battle, command deck capacity can be expanded through level up.
Stat Boosts, gained through level up.

It's all connected to the leveling up, which makes it a more balanced level up system. Thoughts?

[Darkrider S]

I'm all for this Level- up idea of yours mickey :). Sounds really balanced and could work. My only concern is that if you can only do one option per each level up then levelling up would have to be amplified. like the exp awarded from enemies/other would have to be quite a lot imo. Just thinking but maybe we could give them the choice of picking 2 instead of 1? otherwise it might take quite awhile. Honestly it depends on the difficulty of the game I think. Are we doing any difficulty modes by any chance? like Beginner, Intermediate, proud, Critical ?

[inverse K-blade7]

I don't really like the idea of splitting up level ups like that. For one thing, it would be awkward to implement. In CoM, battles take place in a separate area than exploration, so it felt natural to have this level up menu after a battle. In our game, where battles are completely real time and on the overworld map, it'd feel intrusive more than anything. And really, the very existence of a Heart Grid makes a choice like that unnecessary, because the choices could take place on the Heart grid itself. It would be better to simply have the option to use your heart points on either stat boosts or abilities. How could upgrade deck capacity with every level up anyway?

I agree with you that abilities should only come through the Heart grid. I think that each level up should automatically come with stat boosts, and a fixed amount of Heart Points (though occasionally it can give more). Deck Capacity should come from story events and level up. (Unless we plan to have a no exp. option, in which case some of this would have to be reworked)

[DarkRiku-12]

I'm with Inverse here. Our level up system already has so many elements that adding more just makes it feel over complicated.

[Sorax 122]

Reading that level up system made my brain explode. That would alittle bit to complicated for someone to handle. Plus, splitting up the level up categories cause me anxiety over choosing the right level up.

[king_mickey rule]

Reading that level up system made my brain explode. That would alittle bit to complicated for someone to handle. Plus, splitting up the level up categories cause me anxiety over choosing the right level up.

Well, things that are written down (especially systems like that) seem like impossible to understand. That's pretty normal actually. I mean, these level up systems deal with a lot of stuff and have to work properly and because of that, these explanations look like overly complicated.

However, when it's in the game, it'll be explained more simple and more importantly, you can try things out yourself. In other words, when it's in the game, it should be self explanatory.

I don't really like the idea of splitting up level ups like that. For one thing, it would be awkward to implement. In CoM, battles take place in a separate area than exploration, so it felt natural to have this level up menu after a battle. In our game, where battles are completely real time and on the overworld map, it'd feel intrusive more than anything.

That's true, I agree with you on that. It might hinder the action that's going on on the battlefield.

And really, the very existence of a Heart Grid makes a choice like that unnecessary, because the choices could take place on the Heart grid itself. It would be better to simply have the option to use your heart points on either stat boosts or abilities. How could upgrade deck capacity with every level up anyway?

Well, the only reason why I put deck capacity there was just to have an example for the possible options.

I agree with you that abilities should only come through the Heart grid. I think that each level up should automatically come with stat boosts, and a fixed amount of Heart Points (though occasionally it can give more). Deck Capacity should come from story events and level up. (Unless we plan to have a no exp. option, in which case some of this would have to be reworked)

How were Deck Capacity boosts handled in BBS again? Did they come from story events?

And how would level ups give more Heart Points on occasion?

I also think that the way you suggested level ups (stats boosting automatically with level ups + gaining a certain amount of Heart Points) is a good way to go.

I'm with Inverse here. Our level up system already has so many elements that adding more just makes it feel over complicated.

Well, the thing is, I'm not suggesting to add more things (cause clearly, I think that things are already complicated enough). I was just searching for a way to make it one big system to make it more simple.

I'm happy though that you guys gave the critique you gave, this way we'll surely find something that works for everyone ^^

[inverse K-blade7]

Yeah, in BBS, you increased your deck capacity in story events. As for level ups, we can either have each level give boosts to each stat and 5 heart points (just throwing out a number), but maybe give more Heart Points for every fifth level. Or, we could make it like KH1 and KH2, where each level up would only boost specific stats and occasionally give you Heart Points. (btw, do we want accessories?)

[king_mickey rule]

Yeah, in BBS, you increased your deck capacity in story events. As for level ups, we can either have each level give boosts to each stat and 5 heart points (just throwing out a number), but maybe give more Heart Points for every fifth level. Or, we could make it like KH1 and KH2, where each level up would only boost specific stats and occasionally give you Heart Points. (btw, do we want accessories?)

Hmm I prefer giving Heart Points with every level up rather than giving them occasionally. What's really important here is the amount of Heart Points we give (and if we decide to give some more on occasion, like every 5 levels) and how much Heart Points the abilities will cost. This will need a lot of work just to make it work properly.

About the accessories, I don't really think they are necessary because we have abilities like Thunder Screen that can be learned on the Heart Grid. The purpose of the accessories was basically gaining more resistance to elemental attacks and such.

Also, are we gonna use the ability system of KH 1/2? Meaning, we can't equip every ability, just a couple of'em. Or are we going with BBS's system where we could equip as much abilities as we wanted?

[inverse K-blade7]

Hmm I prefer giving Heart Points with every level up rather than giving them occasionally. What's really important here is the amount of Heart Points we give (and if we decide to give some more on occasion, like every 5 levels) and how much Heart Points the abilities will cost. This will need a lot of work just to make it work properly.

About the accessories, I don't really think they are necessary because we have abilities like Thunder Screen that can be learned on the Heart Grid. The purpose of the accessories was basically gaining more resistance to elemental attacks and such.

Also, are we gonna use the ability system of KH 1/2? Meaning, we can't equip every ability, just a couple of'em. Or are we going with BBS's system where we could equip as much abilities as we wanted?

Seeing as the Player would already need to get Heart Points to unlock abilities, I think it'd be better if we went with the BBS system of abilities. And I agree that accessories aren't really needed. But the amount of Heart Points per level up compared to the cost of abilities is an issue we should wait until we have something testable. An Ability list and drawn out Heart Grid would be a really useful thing we could work on now, though. I'll try to put together a (more or less) complete Command list this week myself.

[king_mickey rule]

Seeing as the Player would already need to get Heart Points to unlock abilities, I think it'd be better if we went with the BBS system of abilities. And I agree that accessories aren't really needed. But the amount of Heart Points per level up compared to the cost of abilities is an issue we should wait until we have something testable. An Ability list and drawn out Heart Grid would be a really useful thing we could work on now, though. I'll try to put together a (more or less) complete Command list this week myself.

Fair enough, BBS system does seem more fitting. I also agree that the amount of Heart Points per level up is an issue we should wait with. A drawn Heart Grid (and an actual design for it) really is something that needs to be worked on. The art direction thread still needs the love it deserves with designs like these.

Anyways, I think a list of commands is the first step of really completing this system so thanks for putting that together!

[inverse K-blade7]

OK, this is going to be my official list, which I'll update over time. I'm posting it piece by piece so its easier to give feedback. These are all early-midgame commands that everyone can use.

If you think a command should work slightly differently, be used by different characters, or even have a different name, then please say so. Also post any ideas for Commands you might come up with. Thanks!

[king_mickey rule]

OK, this is going to be my official list, which I'll update over time. I'm posting it piece by piece so its easier to give feedback. These are all early-midgame commands that everyone can use.

If you think a command should work slightly differently, be used by different characters, or even have a different name, then please say so. Also post any ideas for Commands you might come up with. Thanks!

Gonna add them to the OP.

EDIT: Added them to the OP under command list. Is it ok if I put f.e. 'Same as BBS' after Fire/Thunder Surge? Because we already know how the attack looks like, I don't think an explanation is really necessary. However, if you think I need to put the proper explanations there, then just say the word.

[inverse K-blade7]

Just some random questions.
1. Do we want hits to be taken like in BBS/KH2, as in a system where abilities like aerial recovery and retaliating slash can happen? I assume we are, it's just never been confirmed.
2. Do we want tech points, the exp you got in KH1 from blocking attacks? Because I really miss that, personally.
3. Do we want a lvl 1. challenge to be possible, because our Heart point system would have to be modified if so.