Lea Retaining Axel's Memories?

[lycorismoon29]

We don't know that Lea and Isa were part of the experiments...

It is pretty much implied.

Unbeknownst to me, my six apprentices then began collecting a large number of subjects on which to perform dangerous experiments into the "darkness of the heart."

And Lea and Isa were always trying to get into the castle for whatever reason. What is more perfect than allowing those two in, then using them for their experiments.

[HeartSeams]

It is pretty much implied.

It really isn't. They could have lost their hearts in any number of ways. And if they were truly experimented on, I doubt they would have joined the Organization at all.

[lycorismoon29]

It really isn't. They could have lost their hearts in any number of ways. And if they were truly experimented on, I doubt they would have joined the Organization at all.

Then why else show they lived in Radiant Garden (besides convenience)?

They were young, they could have been "willing participants", and they have always had an ulterior motive. Why not join the Org? Makes it easier to take it over, perhaps to exact revenge.

[Sephiroth0812]

Please overthink, hun. We don't have enough of that here anymore.

Anyways, I imagine Lea playing an important role when it comes to the Org's eventual reappearance. Since Lea and Isa were part of the experiments, I imagine that Lea has valuable information for Sora and co. Also, he was a "spy" and played both sides of the Org before eventually betraying both. And Nomura and the KH team have been building up the relationship between Axel and Saix. I think that will be important later on because Nomura usually doesn't have his team build something up then not even use it.

I'll take that first one as a compliment then...lol
So, what do you think of my "overthinking"...:P

That'll also an interesting scenario, especially considering Isa/Saix now probably stands firmly on Xehanort's side.
But the entire Org?
Honestly except Braig, Isa and probably Dilan I don't see why they would follow or support Xehanort anymore.

Lea and Isa being some of the "guinea pigs" is actually heavily implied. It can also be reconciled with them joining the Org at first from other motives.
One has to remember they both had some "secret" plan that didn't go along with Xemnas's at first.
Yet somehow along the way Saix seemed to have switched camps over to Xemnas.

[lycorismoon29]

I think the reason Saix eventually teamed with Xemnas was because Axel stopped following the plan and Xemnas had promised Saix his heart when KH was complete. Saix seemed bitter over Axel's betrayal (of both the Org and their former friendship) so he had nothing left but to join Xemnas.

[Ikkin]

It really isn't. They could have lost their hearts in any number of ways. And if they were truly experimented on, I doubt they would have joined the Organization at all.

I'm not sure there's really as many other options as you might think.

Lea and Isa were both nice kids. If they were turned into Nobodies by simply having their hearts stolen, there'd be no reason for Isa's massive personality change or the pair's ulterior motives to last as long as they did (they might have joined with the intent of pranking/spying on the apprentices for the lulz, but they certainly wouldn't have kept that up for years).

And Saix shows some physical signs of Xehanort's influence: yellow eyes and pointed ears, which Isa didn't have.

Them being part of the experiments would certainly be the simplest way to explain all of that.

[HeartSeams]

Then why else show they lived in Radiant Garden (besides convenience)?

Why can't that be the only reason? Nomura seems set on the idea that original characters can't come from the Disney worlds and there are only so many original worlds they could use, even less that fit in the realm of BBS.

Why not join the Org?

This group of scary scientists practically torture you until you "die" and then you miraculously survive only to find those same people again and you would join them? You would join the bunch of murderers who killed you? I have a bit of a hard time accepting that. Plus, I don't think even Nomura would suggest that these faces we know were tortured to death.

If they were turned into Nobodies by simply having their hearts stolen, there'd be no reason for Isa's massive personality change

You don't think dying by the hands of scary monsters made of darkness and then being born without ANY emotions wouldn't cause a bit of a personality change?

Them being part of the experiments would certainly be the simplest way to explain all of that.

As nice of an idea that is, it still hasn't been confirmed.

Also, how do you explain Axel aging like ten years in a single year (assuming he is an experiment)? A little iffy there.

[Ikkin]

This group of scary scientists practically torture you until you "die" and then you miraculously survive only to find those same people again and you would join them? You would join the bunch of murderers who killed you? I have a bit of a hard time accepting that. Plus, I don't think even Nomura would suggest that these faces we know were tortured to death.

Well, think of it this way:

You're taken in by these scientists who you thought were supposed to be working for the good of your homeworld, stuck in a cage, forceably injected with darkness until your heart collapses, and forced to watch your best friend suffer the same fate.

You somehow manage to come back after all of this, only to find you have no emotions, no goals, no homeworld, and no one you even remember caring about besides that same best friend.

Why would you want to avoid those scientists? You're not afraid of them -- you can't be. They could kill you or force more darkness into you -- but who cares at this point? They're the only people you have any connection to, and even if you can't exactly hate them, they certainly deserve to be punished for what they did to you.

So why not join them? It's not like you have anything better to do, and it's not like you'll feel bad if you can find some excuse to murder them for what they did to you.

You don't think dying by the hands of scary monsters made of darkness and then being born without ANY emotions wouldn't cause a bit of a personality change?

None of the apprentices changed nearly as much as Isa did, so it can't be just that. =P

Also, how do you explain Axel aging like ten years in a single year (assuming he is an experiment)? A little iffy there.

Axel didn't age any more than Zexion did, so I'm not sure that's the best argument.

[lycorismoon29]

Why can't that be the only reason? Nomura seems set on the idea that original characters can't come from the Disney worlds and there are only so many original worlds they could use, even less that fit in the realm of BBS.

Even so, Lea and Isa didn't have to appear. Nomura didn't have to hint at their friendship or their snooping around AtW's castle. Or their ulterior motives for being in the Org.

This group of scary scientists practically torture you until you "die" and then you miraculously survive only to find those same people again and you would join them? You would join the bunch of murderers who killed you? I have a bit of a hard time accepting that. Plus, I don't think even Nomura would suggest that these faces we know were tortured to death.

This is why I presented the "willing participant" thing. If they had willingly joined in the experiments, eventually their beliefs will convert to those of the ones experimenting on them. And when you say that, you'd have to apply it to the rest of the Org who were also participants of the experiments. Why would they want to join with Xemnas who was the one who promoted these experiments that "killed" them?

And why not join with them? They were the only ones with some answers; the one who caused them to become what they are. Why not join them and find answers? Why not try and take over their organization as a way of revenge? Why not join them, then kill Vexen with no remorse? Let Repliku "eat" Zexion with no remorse? Give no care when Riku struck down Lexaeus?

Why not let Sora run off and kill the rest of the Org? For what reason did he do any of that? Want to take over the Org with Saix?

Why if not for the reason that those scientist had turned them into monsters that shouldn't exist?

You don't think dying by the hands of scary monsters made of darkness and then being born without ANY emotions wouldn't cause a bit of a personality change?

They are hardly scary. And they are sly enough to pretend to be nice to those they are experimenting on. Saix had a dramatic character change, but Axel didn't, at least not as much as Saix.

Also, how do you explain Axel aging like ten years in a single year (assuming he is an experiment)? A little iffy there.

The same goes for Ienzo. He was just a boy. Then you mean to tell me he grew in such a short period of time?

[HeartSeams]

None of the apprentices changed nearly as much as Isa did, so it can't be just that. =P

And Lea didn't change as much either, so I guess it also can't be the experiments, eh?

Plus, if it were the experiments, that would make Lea and Isa as the first Nobodies to have been, not the very last ones as their ranking suggests...

Axel didn't age any more than Zexion did, so I'm not sure that's the best argument.

Or maybe that's the point. Perhaps they didn't lose their hearts in a year.

Even so, LEa and Isa didn't have to appear. Nomura didn't have to hint at their friendship or their snooping around AtW's castle.

Sure he did, because he set it up in Days and he had to make Axel more important while also addressing certain things like why Axel would kill Zexion. It's all connected. Plus, I think it was obvious that he would want to show some people's original selves in BBS, especially Axel what with the Roxas implications.

If they had willingly joined in the experiments, eventually their beliefs will convert to those of the ones experimenting on them.

...Hardly. If someone willingly enters into experiments only to find the experiments consist of being tortured to death I doubt they would suddenly kick into Stockholm. And if they did kick into Stockholm, all the more reason why Axel and Saix wouldn't want to destroy the Org, so, now this example is working against you...

And when you say that, you'd have to apply it to the rest of the Org who were also participants of the experiments. Why would they want to join with Xemnas who was the one who promoted these experiments that "killed" them?

You think Xehanort performed the experiments on the other scientists? Because I certainly don't. I think they went around killing Kairi's Grandmother and other people, but not each other.

They are hardly scary. And they are sly enough to pretend to be nice to those they are experimenting on. Saix had a dramatic character change, but Axel didn't, at least not as much as Saix.

I was talking about Heartless.

[lycorismoon29]

And Lea didn't change as much either, so I guess it also can't be the experiments, eh?

Plus, if it were the experiments, that would make Lea and Isa as the first Nobodies to have been, not the very last ones as their ranking suggests...


Or maybe that's the point. Perhaps they didn't lose their hearts in a year.

They were experiments. Why would you rank them higher? If you created them, you make yourself above them. The rank is in order of joining, not so much creation because they had to hunt the other members down. We don't really know how long they had been around as Nobodies. Except for Roxas.

[Sephiroth0812]

Since when were Isa and Lea the very last ones being nobodies?
Their ranking actually suggests they were the first ones to join after the six original members...

[HeartSeams]

The rank is in order of joining, not creation.

Right, and people join in the order they were created.

Since when were Isa and Lea the very last ones being nobodies?
Their ranking actually suggests they were the first ones to join after the six original members...

I meant of the Radiant Garden Nobodies.

[lycorismoon29]

Sure he did, because he set it up in Days and he had to make Axel more important while also addressing certain things like why Axel would kill Zexion. It's all connected. Plus, I think it was obvious that he would want to show some people's original selves in BBS, especially Axel what with the Roxas implications.

If Zexion found out their plans, then that is a good reason for killing him. But why not deepen things? They were in RG and they were just as likely to be taken in those experiments.

...Hardly. If someone willingly enters into experiments only to find the experiments consist of being tortured to death I doubt they would suddenly kick into Stockholm. And if they did kick into Stockholm, all the more reason why Axel and Saix wouldn't want to destroy the Org, so, now this example is working against you...

Not really. They could have been horrified by the experiment. And they could have ran away, left to plan and scheme.

You think Xehanort performed the experiments on the other scientists? Because I certainly don't. I think they went around killing Kairi's Grandmother and other people, but not each other.

How else did they turn into Nobodies without conducting the experiment on themselves?

[HeartSeams]

If Zexion found out their plans, then that is a good reason for killing him. But why not deepen things? They were in RG and they were just as likely to be taken in those experiments.

And they were just as likely to not be taken....
I'm not saying it's impossible for that to be the case, I just don't see anything in the games that make it obvious or imply it enough for us to start considering it factual.

Not really. They could have been horrified by the experiment. And they could have ran away, left to plan and scheme.

Except we've -seen- their lab and they're all jail-cell like pods.
It's not something they can just escape from.

How else did they turn into Nobodies without conducting the experiment on themselves?

They walked through the Door to RG's heart. This was already confirmed.