Underneath the Mask

[tevlen]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

Roxas (and arguably Namine) have more to their "specialty" than just the circumstances by which they were born. Roxas does not look like Ven simply because he was born in a special way, I thought that was pretty obvious. He has the "Ven factor," and that's what contributes to his uniqueness.

Roxas, Namine, and perhaps Xemnas were all born in different manners, yet they are all classified as "special" Nobodies. The manner of birth is not necessarily important but, until we get all of the details, we don't know for sure what makes them all "special."

I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated that it was their births that made them special.

Xemnas was special in that he gave his heart up to the darkness to the point of casting off his physical body. He effectively chose to become a heartless.

[Talys Alankil]

Originally Posted by tevlen

I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated that it was their births that made them special.

Xemnas was special in that he gave his heart up to the darkness to the point of casting off his physical body. He effectively chose to become a heartless.

About Roxas and Naminé, I don't know, but your explanation for Xemnas being special sure isn't right. The five other apprenctices also gave their hearts, and they didn't create a "special" Nobodies.

Completely off-topic : What proof do we have that Vanitas's VA is Soras's ? (not people saying it sounds like the same, I'd like something more concrete. 'Cause using this as an evidence to reinforce / contradict a theory first needs it not to be a theory, y'see?)

[Pratiko]

(Assuming you know which part of the theory I'm talking about)

I read it yesterday when I finished Days, was looking forward to reading it and it was cool.

The guardian, you'll notice, is a being that only appears well after Ansem SoD has started possessing Riku. One could claim that the guardian may not actually be Xehanort's Heartless' darkness, but rather Riku's.

Originally I proposed that the DS (heart and all) remained inside of MX so that, when this was released through Xehanort, DS's heart became a Heartless (the Guardian). But that flat out contradicts this theory. And, moreover, in the new rendition we saw, DS is not actually a part of MX, he simply slides out from behind him.

There is a way to compensate between the two.
Xehanort's Heartless (really Xehanort's memories), possesses Riku, like in the original theory. This is, of course, looong after Vanitas has become a part of Riku. And while dwelling in Riku's heart, he utilizes that piece of Vanitas, essentially controlling its darkness as the guardian. This too is fitting as a theme of fate: Xehanort's Heartless (part of the remnants of MX) and Vanitas, separated after BbS, are reunited through Riku.

Then wouldn't Ansem SoD unable to use the Guardian "Heartless" during Chain of Memories, but only during times when he's inside Riku? Like in the final fight in KH1 and the fight after Deep Dive in front of the Memory Skyscraper against Roxas.

[Marx15]

ur theory is explained very well....but Nobodies dont exist yet in BbS...untill the actions of AtW's apprenices take form.....Nobodies and Heartless do not exist in the time of BbS...so that kinda kills the theory right there.

Since AtW's apprentices began their work at the end of the BbS time period.

Originally Posted by Talys Alankil

About Roxas and Naminé, I don't know, but your explanation for Xemnas being special sure isn't right. The five other apprenctices also gave their hearts, and they didn't create a "special" Nobodies.

Xemnas is known to be a special Nobody...because of the speculation that he is Terra, and since Terra weilds a keyblade and AX didnt, then it is because of his memory being erased after BbS...which is a reason why Nomura has created a game for Xehanorts story...because he was special, cuz like Sora, he retained his form and memories when becoming a Heartless...and Xemnas is the other half...so theres something we need to learn bout him.

[tevlen]

Originally Posted by Talys Alankil

About Roxas and Naminé, I don't know, but your explanation for Xemnas being special sure isn't right. The five other apprenctices also gave their hearts, and they didn't create a "special" Nobodies.

Its very feasible that xemnas gave them a choice and that he took their hearts to make them what they are. A deal with the devil kind of thing, since it is clear that his power is much greater than theirs.

[Talys Alankil]

Originally Posted by Pratiko

I read it yesterday when I finished Days, was looking forward to reading it and it was cool.

Then wouldn't Ansem SoD unable to use the Guardian "Heartless" during Chain of Memories, but only during times when he's inside Riku? Like in the final fight in KH1 and the fight after Deep Dive in front of the Memory Skyscraper against Roxas.

I think Ansem SoD from CoM was made from Riku's memories, so he obviously had the powers Riku (unconsciously) thought he would have

Originally Posted by Marx15

ur theory is explained very well....but Nobodies dont exist yet in BbS...untill the actions of AtW's apprenices take form.....Nobodies and Heartless do not exist in the time of BbS...so that kinda kills the theory right there.

Since AtW's apprentices began their work at the end of the BbS time period.

He's not talking about a real Nobody, but a guy who would have influenced Riku's Nobody's appearance had Riku spawned a Nobody. As Ventus has influence Roxas' appearance

[Marx15]

Originally Posted by Talys Alankil

He's not talking about a real Nobody, but a guy who would have influenced Riku's Nobody's appearance had Riku spawned a Nobody. As Ventus has influence Roxas' appearance

ok

(25 characters long)

[Ragnell 37]

Hey, this is a pretty good explanation of why Riku and Sora can dual-wield (if using the Gayblade and Way to Dawn is considered dual-wielding). They both have two hearts.

Lol, maybe Sora could've triple-wielded when he had his, Kairi's, and Ven's heart inside him.

[tevlen]

Originally Posted by Ragnell 37

Hey, this is a pretty good explanation of why Riku and Sora can dual-wield (if using the Gayblade and Way to Dawn is considered dual-wielding). They both have two hearts.

Lol, maybe Sora could've triple-wielded when he had his, Kairi's, and Ven's heart inside him.

There is no proof that the Gayblade was dual weilded. The statment used as "proof" for that is ambigious and could have two meanings.

[Talys Alankil]

Originally Posted by Ragnell 37

triple-wielded

And how do you do that ?
That way ? lol
Edit : What do you mean by Gayblade ?

[tevlen]

Originally Posted by Talys Alankil

And how do you do that ?
That way ? lol
Edit : What do you mean by Gayblade ?

The Gayblade is Kairi's keyblade, handed to her by riku.

[Pratiko]

Stay on topic guys =/

25 chars

[Ragnell 37]

Originally Posted by Talys Alankil

And how do you do that ?
That way ? lol
Edit : What do you mean by Gayblade ?

I mean this:



And I'm kidding... Maybe Sora'd hold one in his teeth like when he's a lion. Or maybe he'd hold two in one hand...

Ahem, on topic, this theory is good is pretty good, but it does have almost no supporting evidence.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by tevlen

I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated that it was their births that made them special.

You're right, in the past, it was stated that their births made them special.
But what was never explicitly stated is how the both of them were born from just one body and soul. Go back and read every source on the matter and you'll find that Nomura is ambiguous and vague, at best.

The conventional agreement (for most people) is that Roxas was created from Sora's body and soul. However, this in itself, as his birth, does NOT make him special in the least bit. That is the normal birth of a Nobody. It is either wrong or there is more to it. Either way, what really makes him special, I think most would agree, is however Ven was involved in his birth.

In other words, the birth really isn't what makes them special, at least not for Roxas. It's retconning, true, but that's what Nomura does. Just look at the "he used to give me that exact same look" comment by Xigbar. Originally implied to be a reference to Roxas, it has now been hinted at to refer to Ven.

Originally Posted by Pratiko

I read it yesterday when I finished Days, was looking forward to reading it and it was cool.

Then wouldn't Ansem SoD unable to use the Guardian "Heartless" during Chain of Memories, but only during times when he's inside Riku? Like in the final fight in KH1 and the fight after Deep Dive in front of the Memory Skyscraper against Roxas.

Well, I'm flattered that someone would actually enjoy reading that... fairly long exposition.

As for your question, the Guardian has a corporeal form outside of Riku's heart. Ansem SoD utilized it in KH1 while possessing Riku's body and soul. When he could no longer take possession of Riku's body in CoM, he was still naturally trying to make Riku's darkness overwhelm him so that he could possess him again. And that is why Ansem SoD is still using the Guardian- Riku tries to refute his darkness, while Ansem tries to use it against him. At the end, when he learns to use his darkness, to confront it rather than run from it, it's essentially a tug of war between Riku's darkness and Ansem SoD's darkness. In winning, Riku reacquires the Guardian (that piece of Vanitas) and it becomes for the first time under his control, as we see in the fight between Roxas and Riku.

[Pratiko]

Well, I'm flattered that someone would actually enjoy reading that... fairly long exposition.

I specially liked the Roxas part. You should definately release that piece of document to the public, as it shows a major flaw in everyone's way of reading, lulz.

As for your question, the Guardian has a corporeal form outside of Riku's heart. Ansem SoD utilized it in KH1 while possessing Riku's body and soul. When he could no longer take possession of Riku's body in CoM, he was still naturally trying to make Riku's darkness overwhelm him so that he could possess him again. And that is why Ansem SoD is still using the Guardian- Riku tries to refute his darkness, while Ansem tries to use it against him. At the end, when he learns to use his darkness, to confront it rather than run from it, it's essentially a tug of war between Riku's darkness and Ansem SoD's darkness. In winning, Riku reacquires the Guardian (that piece of Vanitas) and it becomes for the first time under his control, as we see in the fight between Roxas and Riku.

So you mean that he still controls Riku's darkness' in Riku, but with some certain limitation to just his Guardian?