Namine's powers?

[KH Warrior 2]

oh what happened if the organization cameback?

[∞]

Originally Posted by KH Warrior 2

To be honest with you I really am on the Brink of thinking that Namine will become a Organzation memeber if she doesn't it would be cool

Which wouldn't ever happen, even if she wasn't absorbed back into Kairi. Why would she want to work and live with these people who's enslaved and probably tortured her?

She wasn't made into an Organization member when she was first 'born', when she was at her most 'loyal'. Why would she get it later?

[Smile]

Originally Posted by goldpanner

1. contradict canon

I'd go with this, but.

2. mean that the memories I assumed Namine created for Sora were actually originally of Kairi anyway

If she means a link in a chain needs to exist for her to work with, I can see her being truthful. That means that it would be like taking a painting and drawing over it until you can't see what was underneath at all. It would go with why she said Memories of her would make Sora's feelings for Kairi stronger, as the feelings would attach themselves to a Memory Link that originally linked to Kairi, but with content all Namine-oriented that makes Sora love the girl inside that Memory even after the "paint" Namine put on the canvas were to be scratched away. In a sense, she really would be basing herself on Sora's existing friendship with Kairi - but then it took a whole different direction.
However, you'd see nothing of the original Memory. For all purposes, it is a new Memory - as far as the "story" inside Sora's Memories is concerned, not as far as links in the chains are concerned.

I kind of tend to think that description, while tying in with everything rather nicely, actually comes to contradict some events taking place in Days, and Xion though.

Spoilers – Days…

her delinking Memories of Kairi and putting in fresh new ones of herself would come to explain why Xion had enough Memories of Kairi to be able to give herself shape.
Hm. On the other hand, it might also tie in with Namine shaping the Memories, and Xion, being tied to them, was shaped as well - but after Namine.

Hm. *goes to update that theory thread*

3. she is lying to Axel because he's one of the org. members and she doesn't want to give them any more ammo...?

Hm. I'm trying to come up with how it would be more ammo, but can't. Then again, I'm hardly ruling this out. She seemed to gradually come to do little and little for them, doing the absolute necessary to keep out of harm's way, and eventually she didn't do that, either. Another logical option.

4. She learns how to create memories from scratch later and I'm just not up to there yet? Though by this point, Sora already has the paopu charm thingy.

Doubtful, as you have to wonder exactly how many memory links Repliku had inside him for her to mess around with. And she gave him enough Memories to be able to fool Sora with, along with the Memories that were supposed to make him be obsessed with her. So, eh.

Going with either the Days novels screwed up, or she was lying.

I didn't think this had any spoilers....[/color][/size][/font]

Eh. CoM plot turf, mostly. No harm done.

[Grace Assassin]

As I've said in another topic, she "makes" memories based on pre-existing ones.
Otherwise she would have no material to work with.

So this does not contradict game canon.
It's like the law of conservation of energy- Namine can neither destroy memories, nor can she create them out of nothing. She makes new ones out of old ones.

[Smile]

Actually, it might very well contradict the canon yet. If by 'creating' new Memories the writer had her intending content wise, it's contradictory and silly. And even if they meant it by her being unable to create new links - we don't know the precise nature of Namine's powers. It might end up to be talking about the links in the chain in the novels, but in CoM she might've replaced the links, not the content, or something along those lines.
The line can both contradict and not contradict the canon. However, we can't say for sure either which way at this point in time.

[Grace Assassin]

Namine rearranges the links and creates new ones.

Picture a chain. No chain, no way to make a different chain. With the chain, she takes out individual links and places them in new locations, which results in Sora remembering altered and/or entirely new memories.

[Audo]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

It's like the law of conservation of energy- Namine can neither destroy memories, nor can she create them out of nothing. She makes new ones out of old ones.

And yet she can erase a person's memories...

[Smile]

See, it's the "rearrange" part that makes me doubt this. She can edit herself into the Memories as they are aligned already. Why bother changing the links? Why not just edit the whole thing as it stands? Sora cared about her enough when all she did was turn SRK -> SRKN. She could've left it like that. That was when she started tearing Memories out of the chain, which is something you didn't quite mention. It's not like at the end Sora had a life-time of Memories of Namine. He lacked a life-time of Memories, and only had Memories of hers left, as much as he had left of those.

It just doesn't sound right in light of what we saw that she can only arrange them - again, especially with how little material she had to work with when we look at Repliku.
Iono. When they describe someone with powers over Sora's Memories, I'd imagine that... ok, programmer lingo.
I'd imagine that in Namine's Interface, we'd have Rearrange(), Shuffle(), Edit(), Detach(), and lo and behold - Create(). And it's not like she'd really have to work hard or something - we already saw that Sora's Heart reacted to her powers, by attaching feelings to the Memories she edited. Who's to say (well, the novels, but it's their canonity we're debating here) that Sora's Heart wouldn't have created a Link to fit once she started 'painting'? Hell, Namine urging Sora's Heart to create a link for her to work on might just be part of her powers.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by Audo

And yet she can erase a person's memories...

Again, though, she cannot destroy memories. She herself said so.
By "erase," she would just be altering the memories so that Sora could not remember them (whether this constitutes her yanking the entire chain out, breaking the links between them, and/or storing them away as "forgot, but not lost.")

Originally Posted by Smile

See, it's the "rearrange" part that makes me doubt this. She can edit herself into the Memories as they are aligned already. Why bother changing the links? Why not just edit the whole thing as it stands? Sora cared about her enough when all she did was turn SRK -> SRKN. She could've left it like that. That was when she started tearing Memories out of the chain, which is something you didn't quite mention. It's not like at the end Sora had a life-time of Memories of Namine. He lacked a life-time of Memories, and only had Memories of hers left, as much as he had left of those.

It just doesn't sound right in light of what we saw that she can only arrange them - again, especially with how little material she had to work with when we look at Repliku.
Iono. When they describe someone with powers over Sora's Memories, I'd imagine that... ok, programmer lingo.
I'd imagine that in Namine's Interface, we'd have Rearrange(), Shuffle(), Edit(), Detach(), and lo and behold - Create(). And it's not like she'd really have to work hard or something - we already saw that Sora's Heart reacted to her powers, by attaching feelings to the Memories she edited. Who's to say (well, the novels, but it's their canonity we're debating here) that Sora's Heart wouldn't have created a Link to fit once she started 'painting'? Hell, Namine urging Sora's Heart to create a link for her to work on might just be part of her powers.

When it was SRKN, the process of altering memories of Kairi had already begun. Some of his memories of Kairi were still of Kairi, while the rest were being rearranged into that of Namine.
By the time it's only SRN, Namine has effectively replaced Kairi.
It was never about being a memory alongside Kairi, it was about overtaking those memories, ie rearranging them.
Namine's interface? That's a certainly sketchy thing to base your reasoning on, but I'd like to point out that all f the processes (Rearrange, shuffle, edit, detach) are only possible if they're based in something that already exists.

You're right, she does create memories in that regard, as I've already said.
We're talking about "create" here not in the existential sense but in the... for lack of a better term, creative sense.
Example: You make a sand castle. Because the sand as your medium already existed, does that not mean you created a sand castle? Of course not, you created a sand castle alright, just from something pre-existing (like the law of conservation of energy, you changed its structure).
Similarly, Namine has to make memories from pre-existing ones, she cannot just insert ones that came out of nowhere.

[Smile]

It makes sense, never said otherwise. And the whole SoKai friendship -> SoNami romance -> SoKai romance that never really made it in KH2 is about the most logical way of putting it I came across ever. Would certainly also explain why Sora's Memories of Kairi's are so important and precious - because of the feelings attached to them from when they were Memories of Namine. (lol ironic twist on the whole damn thing)

But something about it just still makes it icky, especially since we have no way of knowing if that was truly what they meant when Larxene said she was expecting Namine to create new Memories (just the content, or also the base? Could be both), and whether or not Namine was being truthful to Axel. Seemingly only two points, but depending on either answer, what you have there wouldn't be only a theory, it'll also be a false theory.

Goldpanner said the Days' novels writer didn't have to do with CoM, did she? So she might not be up to date with all the tidbits. Also, we've no way of knowing whether or not that tidbit was brought up for Nomura's approval.
And even if so, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he approved something in order to mislead us about the true canon, just to keep us from speculating in the right direction >_>

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by Smile

It makes sense, never said otherwise. And the whole SoKai friendship -> SoNami romance -> SoKai romance that never really made it in KH2 is about the most logical way of putting it I came across ever. Would certainly also explain why Sora's Memories of Kairi's are so important and precious - because of the feelings attached to them from when they were Memories of Namine. (lol ironic twist on the whole damn thing)

But something about it just still makes it icky, especially since we have no way of knowing if that was truly what they meant when Larxene said she was expecting Namine to create new Memories (just the content, or also the base? Could be both), and whether or not Namine was being truthful to Axel. Seemingly only two points, but depending on either answer, what you have there wouldn't be only a theory, it'll also be a false theory.

Goldpanner said the Days' novels writer didn't have to do with CoM, did she? So she might not be up to date with all the tidbits. Also, we've no way of knowing whether or not that tidbit was brought up for Nomura's approval.
And even if so, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he approved something in order to mislead us about the true canon, just to keep us from speculating in the right direction >_>

7:05-8:05. Namine sums it up quite nicely.

[Smile]

"Many pieces are in a chain"
Not all of them. See the Memories of Namine that sank into Sora's Heart and were out of reach. See

Spoilers – Days…

Memories of Xion

"Just take apart the links and rearrange them"
Possible read just take apart the links, and rearrange them. Namely - two different options. Leading to what we see above since she never put them back in a chain that Sora had access to.

You know what? Forget it. That movie actually made me believe there's no way she painted over.
Take link, paint over. How in Nomura's name would Namine know what that Memory used to be? Do Memories have "restore" or "revert" options?
I doubt, as opposed to Namine taking the links apart and letting Memories "sink". The false Memories would be linked to the Memories from Castle Oblivion, and that's why - despite those Memories being in Sora's present - would have to be delinked as well, otherwise they'll bring up a contradiction between the made up Memories and the original ones. Hence why Sora still remembered Namine despite her showing him a glimpse of Kairi on the DI Memory Floor - she didn't "peel off the pain", she pulled up a Memory of Kairi's

Spoilers – Days…

That Xion didn't eat up

To speak your language - good luck putting every last grain of sand back in its place once you take apart the sand castle. It's possible in theory but you're going to need a map - which is something we lack in both cases.

Oh, and also.

7:45

Originally Posted by Namine

I have to undo the chains of the Memories I made on my own.

She made, on her own, whole chains. I'm certain you'll analyse the grammer in some way to make it so she's taking apart the Memories she made, but uh. That's the thing. She takes apart Memories, and then:

8:08

Originally Posted by Namine

I have to gather up the Memories scattered across each of your hearts and then reconnect them.

Reconnect the Memories she took apart. No "reverting", which actually makes sense once you look at Donald and Goofy - detachment of Memories, not restoration. And in light of Sora not remembering stuff he had Memories in his Heart of, it all adds up gloriously.

So yeah. I'm going with either contradiction here, or Namine was from bluffing to unaware herself. Since she was putting their Memories back together, not reverting them.

Thanks, Grace. I needed that to get me on one side of the fence c:

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by Smile

"Many pieces are in a chain"
Not all of them. See the Memories of Namine that sank into Sora's Heart and were out of reach. See

Spoilers – Days…

Memories of Xion

"Just take apart the links and rearrange them"
Possible read just take apart the links, and rearrange them. Namely - two different options. Leading to what we see above since she never put them back in a chain that Sora had access to.[spoiler]

She's talking about the memories that she did alter, not the ones that she would have no idea they were gone in the first place. Has zero relevance here.

Originally Posted by Smile

You know what? Forget it. That movie actually made me believe there's no way she painted over.
Take link, paint over. How in Nomura's name would Namine know what that Memory used to be? Do Memories have "restore" or "revert" options?
I doubt, as opposed to Namine taking the links apart and letting Memories "sink". The false Memories would be linked to the Memories from Castle Oblivion, and that's why - despite those Memories being in Sora's present - would have to be delinked as well, otherwise they'll bring up a contradiction between the made up Memories and the original ones. Hence why Sora still remembered Namine despite her showing him a glimpse of Kairi on the DI Memory Floor - she didn't "peel off the pain", she pulled up a Memory of Kairi's

Spoilers – Days…

That Xion didn't eat up

To speak your language - good luck putting every last grain of sand back in its place once you take apart the sand castle. It's possible in theory but you're going to need a map - which is something we lack in both cases.

To sum up what you say here-
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See: argument from personal incredulity

"I find this so impossible and I have no idea how Namine could conceivably do such a thing."

Originally Posted by Smile

Oh, and also.

7:45


She made, on her own, whole chains. I'm certain you'll analyse the grammer in some way to make it so she's taking apart the Memories she made, but uh. That's the thing. She takes apart Memories, and then:

8:08


Reconnect the Memories she took apart. No "reverting", which actually makes sense once you look at Donald and Goofy - detachment of Memories, not restoration. And in light of Sora not remembering stuff he had Memories in his Heart of, it all adds up gloriously.

So yeah. I'm going with either contradiction here, or Namine was from bluffing to unaware herself. Since she was putting their Memories back together, not reverting them.

Thanks, Grace. I needed that to get me on one side of the fence c:

[/quote]

I knew you would do that.
She's using "make" there in the context I've been talking about the whole time, ie made from Sora's memories.

There's no spin on grammar here. If you don't believe me, look up the original CoM ending and the Japanese Re:CoM ending. What does Namine say in place of that statement?

That she has to undo the new links she made.
New links make new memories out of old ones.

[Smile]

"I find this so impossible and I have no idea how Namine could conceivably do such a thing."

I find this impossible as it was never truly hinted. Instead, Namine said, "take part false, put back true.

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

To sum up what you say here-
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See: argument from personal incredulity

"I find this so impossible and I have no idea how Namine could conceivably do such a thing."

Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

That she has to undo the new links she made.
New links make new memories out of old ones.

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

That she has to undo the new links she made.
New links make new memories out of old ones.

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

New Links

As your beloved wiki would state:
Chain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Wiki, Link value

A chain is a series of connected links.

The "link" isn't what keeps pieces apart. It IS a piece.
You just quoted something which arguably, going by the same rules of grammar and logic you love so much - disproves you to a painful degree.
She made new links. She created the basis as well as the content.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by Smile

"I find this so impossible and I have no idea how Namine could conceivably do such a thing."

I find this impossible as it was never truly hinted. Instead, Namine said, "take part false, put back true.

I like how in a matter of two posts you've gone from saying that it makes sense to that it's downright "impossible."

It was never hinted. It was stated by Namine in very obvious terms.
She said, and I quote,

I just take apart the links and rearrange them.

Seriously, it's right there.

Originally Posted by Smile

As your beloved wiki would state:
Chain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The "link" isn't what keeps pieces apart. It IS a piece.
You just quoted something which arguably, going by the same rules of grammar and logic you love so much - disproves you to a painful degree.
She made new links. She created the basis as well as the content.

Yes, but first I have to undo the links I made.

She never said "new" but I didn't actually think you'd be so petty.
Taking apart the links in a chain and rearranging them, you make NEW links based on preexisting pieces.
By doing so, it gives Sora NEW memories based on OLD pieces with rearranged links.

NEW, as I used it, doesn't have to be "out of nowhere."

This isn't even hard to understand, it's not like they were vague in those lines.