The Longest and Most Controversial Theory Thread on KHI Ever

[Ragnell 37]

I really like the theory. Some parts are definitely uncertain, but just about every thing you said makes sense. Especially the part about Repliku and Roxas' birth. As I read the first few sentences on your section on Roxas and Namine, I immediately thought of a similar idea as you(though with less evidence than you showed). As I read the rest of the section, I hoped you would say the same thing, and Surprise! You did. Well done.

But I think the part about DiZ and AtW seems like a bit of a stretch, and also seems a bit unnecessary. There is little evidence for it (besides DiZ's anger, which could easily be said to just be his lust for revenge), though there is also little evidence against it. Plus, if DiZ is AtW's Unverse, it probably won't be covered in BbS at all, since the event hadn't happened yet. The only way it could become relevant (thus worth mentioning in a future game) is if the real AtW comes back in KH3. It could happen, don't get me wrong, but there just seems to be a lack of evidence on both sides.

Unless, you consider golden/amber eyes as a sign of an Unverse, and I missed that part. If that is the case, your theory about DiZ makes sense.

Nice work, I expect to see countless variations of this theory popping up all over the place in the next few days.

[Athaydea]

Originally Posted by Ragnell 37

But I think the part about DiZ and AtW seems like a bit of a stretch, and also seems a bit unnecessary. There is little evidence for it (besides DiZ's anger, which could easily be said to just be his lust for revenge), though there is also little evidence against it. Plus, if DiZ is AtW's Unverse, it probably won't be covered in BbS at all, since the event hadn't happened yet. The only way it could become relevant (thus worth mentioning in a future game) is if the real AtW comes back in KH3. It could happen, don't get me wrong, but there just seems to be a lack of evidence on both sides.

i think that is completely dependent upon how far BBS's story will go ..if it really only reaches the point of xehanorts appearance ..than youre probly right ..im not so inclined to think so though ..i remember reading that atw's apprentices make an appearance, which makes me think that not only will Xehnanorts creation of the heartless be "covered" ..but most likely the couse of events leading to Xehanort and the other apprentices betraying atw and casting their hearts into darkness

granted most people will disagree and im not sure it will happen myself ..but i would LOVEE if the details regarding these events and what transpires directly after BBS were at least touched upon

[ccsakura21]

congratulations! You're the first person to figure out the entire storyline of birth by sleep!

[Grace Assassin]

Thanks for all of the feedback everyone.
I honestly expected more, "ROXAS IS SORA'S NOBODY XEHANORT'SHEARTLESS IS A HEARTLESS GURFAW."

Originally Posted by Pianoajd2

........

........

......Woah....

It.....it all makes sense....

Great job! I like the theory.

I know this is a sensitive question about....Roxas....

So you're saying that Namine is Kairi's nobody using sora's body and soul? Okay...

And that Roxas is not technically a nobody, but an unversed, being made from Sora's memories and something from Ven?

I just want to make sure I have it down.

Thanks for posting. Rep added.

Bingo.

Originally Posted by Ragnell 37

But I think the part about DiZ and AtW seems like a bit of a stretch, and also seems a bit unnecessary. There is little evidence for it (besides DiZ's anger, which could easily be said to just be his lust for revenge), though there is also little evidence against it. Plus, if DiZ is AtW's Unverse, it probably won't be covered in BbS at all, since the event hadn't happened yet. The only way it could become relevant (thus worth mentioning in a future game) is if the real AtW comes back in KH3. It could happen, don't get me wrong, but there just seems to be a lack of evidence on both sides.

You're absolutely right though.
There's little evidence for it. I could just as easily say that the DiZ we see in each cutscene is a different replica and it wouldn't make much of a difference based on the amount of evidence we have. However.

It is only by relying upon my anger and hatred that I have been able to retain my sense of self here, where all existence is nullified.

Anger and hate are supreme.

It's just too obvious to pass up now that we know Unversed are involved with negative emotion.

And, as you said, the problem is that most likely we will not be seeing all of this in BbS. The theorizing here (including Repliku) extends beyond BbS and is something I think we'd see in future games.
I mean, for example, what I'm implying here is that we'll be meeting Ansem the Wise in KH3. If DiZ was an Unversed, then when his head esplode, the memories returned to the original AtW.


It dawned on me, you guys, that I forgot to add in why they're "not well versed in existence."
I'm sure you could figure out my line of thinking yourselves based on Roxas.

"Not well versed in existence." When I think of something not knowledgeable of existence, I think of something fresh to existence. Like a baby.

SO UNVERSED ARE UNBORN KIDS THAT ARE ABORTED.

I mean.
Actually, it's along the lines of thinking about a baby that I arrived to my idea.
A baby. I immediately thought of Roxas in the Days manga.

How would you define Roxas' behavior at the beginning of Days? He's absolutely not well versed in existence.

So, really, the idea of them being Unversed comes from their naivete in lacking memories and being new to the world. It is with time that they grow accustomed.

[AquaX]

That was the most impressive and well thought theories i have read in a long time. Good job!! Although i hope bbs doesnt make it that confusing to understand

[Shinra X-2]

amazing theory man.....very nice....

[xjeezlouisx]

I believe this theory, especially how the pictures are like a pattern.
It makes so much sense.

EDIT: about the Roxas thing, what if it wasnt Sora? what if it was Kairi?
Like Kairi to Ven, what if He was hurt and she had some sort of power to heal him... like he died blah blah blah...
I dont know..

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by AquaX

That was the most impressive and well thought theories i have read in a long time. Good job!! Although i hope bbs doesnt make it that confusing to understand

I think that when you take the core idea away from it (and remove all of my rambling about evidence, specifics, and whatnot), it's pretty simple to understand.

An Unversed is dark memories made from negative emotion. They take memories away from the original being to assume the role of a replica.

And copypasta to the six examples provided.

Originally Posted by xjeezlouisx

EDIT: about the Roxas thing, what if it wasnt Sora? what if it was Kairi?
Like Kairi to Ven, what if He was hurt and she had some sort of power to heal him... like he died blah blah blah...
I dont know..

Not sure what you're saying.

[xjeezlouisx]

Whatever piece of Ven that was in Sora (let's say Ven's memories since it would make sense that Sora's memories and Ven's memories were together after they had been released), went to Roxas. So Roxas=Sora's memories + Ven's [insert whatever].

In this quote you said Ven Memories were inserted in Sora? Somehow.
well what if Namine created Roxas somehow...
She can control Sora's Memories, What if Sora saw Ven.. Like a glimpse or even spoke to him.(This is consider somewhat of a Memory, like a Past Memory.)
She searched through his memory decided to pick that figure and BAM, you have Roxas that looks like Ven.

[Araliya]

But surely there's a limit to what Namine can and can't do. :/

I'm not sure if Namine would be capable of creating a being out of memories without the help of Castle Oblivion or something else.

[_Omni_]

Yes this shit really does make sense. You people and your theorizing. The ones like GA scare me because this could very well be the answer to what the unversed are and this could also be a real plot twist. Sounds like sum stuff Nomura would think up. For now IMO this blows most of the other theories off the map.

[OmniChaos]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

MX is the Unversed of an unknown character.

Fifty bucks says it's MVAT.

(otherwise, well, it would certainly be one ludicrous coincidence that they have the same name, yet only one of them has meaning).

I don't know...
It's obvious that the two anagrams refer to MX, but, seeing as how Xehanort only remembered the name "Xehanort" (and I assumed he believed it to be his), I, personally, don't find it too far of a stretch to think "No Heart" and "Another" (well, maybe "another") don't actually refer to Xehanort himself.

Otherwise, Sora would have forgotten about Kairi after Xemnas sampled them and created Xion, which we know is not the case.

Too bad, eh?

Thus it follows that, perhaps, Xehanort (the Terra replica) absorbed MX, thus stopping MX from doing what he meant to do.

What if he doesn't stop MX? What if MX succeeded in obtaining a heart before the two "fused" (absorbed, combined, whatever. Using the term loosely.) together?

I don’t really care that it’s been established that Xehanort’s Heartless... is a Heartless. We know that he is a one of a kind. No Heartless has taken on his kind of existence, not even Sora (Sora was not a Heartless when he was restored by Kairi). Right off the bat, Xehanort’s Heartless retained a humanoid form and sense of self.

I love seeing other people say this.

If you need evidence that Xehanort’s Heartless is actually comprised of memories, look no further than CoM.

Here's the problem I have with XH being memories:
When a Heartless is destroyed, the stolen heart rejoins with body. In the case that the body became a Nobody, the heart resorts to a state of suspension, waiting for its respective Nobody to be defeated so that it may become a whole being again. We've learned this much from Nomura, correct?

Now, if XH is actually MX's memories and not, in some shape or form, Xehanort's heart (or if Xehanort does not even have a heart), then there would be no heart waiting in suspension for its respective Nobody to be defeated so that it may become whole.

Even though I believe memories can, to an extent, act as a sort of substitute for a heart, I do not think memories would be able to act as a heart in this instence.

One more thing to add regarding Xehanort’s Heartless.
DS seems to be a part of MX in some way.
And the Guardian seems to be a part of Xehanort’s Heartless in some way.
I say that, when Xehanort absorbed Master Xehanort, DS was still “inside” MX. And DS has a real heart. So, when the memories of MX were released from Xehanort, DS’s heart was released as well. And that heart became a Heartless. In other words, it’s an unlikely pairing. Xehanort’s Heartless is an Unversed, the Guardian is the DS’s Heartless.

I have to disagree.
I think the connection between XH and the Guardian runs deeper then that.
I would sooner say the Guardian is the darkness from within XH (who I believe to be a free-floating heart, like Sora was), which would technically make it Xehanort "Heartless" in a way.

As a side note, it should be interesting to point out that, if this theory is true, Xehanort isn’t coming back. The main antagonist, in the future, will be someone else.

Which is the main reason I do not support this segment of your theory. How I see it, removing Xehanort as the main antagonist would be just about the same as removing Sora as the main protagonist.

However, one of Xemnas' lines before the final battle, "I cannot allow it to end this way, not yet", leads me to believe that Xemnas actually intended on being defeated, only that he was not yet ready to, and the only reason I can think that he would want to be defeated is if he knew that he would become whole again.

Originally Posted by Chevalier Sombre

VAT had longer theories. :v

Shit, VAT's theories put everyone else's to shame length-wise.

[goldpanner]

Holy crap. I get the feeling I've been spoiled before even the Japanese version came out XD I like it, I like it heaps. I especially like the DiZ being an unversed. It makes a lot of sense, and i think how he didn't know he was the fake is similar to how repliku didn't know he was the fake until it was proved to him. It can happen! Awesome. Yes.

Just gonna chuck this out randomly, GA, cause you are really smart and can explain it:
I was hearing that Ventus was a PoH for some reason? Why were people saying that? And could that have any connection to Kairi/Sora/Roxas/Namine <---that thing?

Also. So if Roxas is an unversed, then he'd have a memory heart thing, right? Does this have any connection to how he could make Axel 'feel as though he had a heart'? And even cry in that FM+ scene?

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by OmniChaos

Fifty bucks says it's MVAT.

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking since my "Revelation of the Unbirth" thread.

Originally Posted by OmniChaos

I don't know...
It's obvious that the two anagrams refer to MX, but, seeing as how Xehanort only remembered the name "Xehanort" (and I assumed he believed it to be his), I, personally, don't find it too far of a stretch to think "No Heart" and "Another" (well, maybe "another") don't actually refer to Xehanort himself.

I actually thought people would have a hard time thinking "No Heart" and "Another" applied to MX. When Nomura mentioned the anagrams' significance, he was talking about them in reference to Xehanort (well before we even knew about MX).

As I said, though, we all know that the fact that they have the same name isn't some happenstance. It's not like a common name that we could dismiss.
So if we are to admit that the same-name deal isn't a coincidence, then it would follow that the meaning behind that name applies to both.

It might not be for the same reason (as my theory says) but "No Heart" and "Another" must have their significance for both men.

Originally Posted by OmniChaos

I love seeing other people say this.

Hm?

Originally Posted by OmniChaos

Here's the problem I have with XH being memories:
When a Heartless is destroyed, the stolen heart rejoins with body. In the case that the body became a Nobody, the heart resorts to a state of suspension, waiting for its respective Nobody to be defeated so that it may become a whole being again. We've learned this much from Nomura, correct?

Now, if XH is actually MX's memories and not, in some shape or form, Xehanort's heart (or if Xehanort does not even have a heart), then there would be no heart waiting in suspension for its respective Nobody to be defeated so that it may become whole.

Even though I believe memories can, to an extent, act as a sort of substitute for a heart, I do not think memories would be able to act as a heart in this instence.

So what is it exactly that you have a problem with here? That, because Xehanort's Heartless is actually memories, then it would not resort to a state of suspension when defeated (and thus Xemnas, when defeated, would not return to his original self)?

Because that's exactly what I'm saying. You seem to be under the impression that Xemnas and Xehanort's Heartless have to recombine. Not in this case. That is something that (like the idea of Roxas automatically being Sora's body and soul) people take for granted without scrutinizing.

What would happen in my theory, then?
Xehanort's Heartless, at the end of CoM, promises to return. His darkness still lingers in Riku's heart. Meaning, accordingly, that the memories are still there (which he can use to manifest in XH's form).

But there's the issue of the AtW explosion. How exactly did it affect Riku?
He no longer belongs to the dark realm, so my guess would be that MX's memories were released. And if they're released, where would they go?

Not back to Xehanort (the Terra replica), that's for sure (who was, at this time, the Nobody Xemnas).

Well, where else would the memories go of a vanquished Unversed than back to the original? That is, MX's memories, released from Riku's heart, went back to whoever the original of MX was.

Originally Posted by OmniChaos

I have to disagree.
I think the connection between XH and the Guardian runs deeper then that.
I would sooner say the Guardian is the darkness from within XH (who I believe to be a free-floating heart, like Sora was), which would technically make it Xehanort "Heartless" in a way.

You and I are of a more similar line of thinking on this than you'd think.

The Guardian, we can see, is a shadow branching off from the feet of Xehanort's Heartless.
It's like he's Xehanort's inner darkness. Yet we can see he is an independent being (which would immediately remind me of Anti Sora in KH1).

Look at the DS. He splits out of MX (and is a mirror image) and turns into a dark being. Like, you know, a reflection of MX's inner darkness.
I'm not quite saying that DS is a natural part of MX. If he's his apprentice, then he's his own man as I see it.

However, I'm saying that, like with the Guardian and XH, DS's connection to MX runs deeper than a superficial level.

How deep? Who knows.
I don't really think it's my place to theorize about that, but, for example, maybe MX's ability to "absorb" (like the other replicas) is kicking in here. Not entirely absorbing the DS (otherwise I doubt we'd be seeing him), but something along those lines whereupon MX could use DS's heart. And, in that respect, their darkness becomes intermingled.

Originally Posted by OmniChaos

[color="blue"]Which is the main reason I do not support this segment of your theory. How I see it, removing Xehanort as the main antagonist would be just about the same as removing Sora as the main protagonist.

And conversely there are plenty of people bitching about being sick of the forms of Xehanort in each game.
It could go either way, really.

There can be a happy medium, though.
If "Xehanort" is not the real villain, who is?
One very real possibility in my theory is the original of MX... whoever that is. So, in a sense, the main antagonist would be connected to Xehanort.

Originally Posted by goldpanner

I was hearing that Ventus was a PoH for some reason? Why were people saying that? And could that have any connection to Kairi/Sora/Roxas/Namine <---that thing?

Mm. Not really in a position to say.
Until we know more, I'm of the mind that there's just the seven PoH. That there are seven who are born with some sort of inherent predisposition to light which can be activated. If more people could become pure hearted, it would ruin the premise of the legend.

Still, it's not impossible.
I mean, I talked about "light" memories as well. Maybe Ven made a "light" Unversed (seeing as how Roxas can use light). But... that wouldn't really make sense with the negative emotions.

Originally Posted by goldpanner

Also. So if Roxas is an unversed, then he'd have a memory heart thing, right? Does this have any connection to how he could make Axel 'feel as though he had a heart'? And even cry in that FM+ scene?

Honestly, I did think about that. At first I thought about the idea of Axel being an Unversed, which in turn made me wonder about the entire Organization. That's ridiculous though.
Nothing about any of the other members besides Xemnas and Roxas being "Special Nobodies."

The best explanation I can offer is from my previous theory:

Can these replicas feel? I'm sure they can since they do have a "heart," though, as even Repliku has said, there's an overwhelming sense of feeling "empty."

It brings light to the condition of the Nobodies as well.
As Nomura has said, "In order to assume a new existence, information about their own personal circumstances must first be gathered. A Nobody's main characteristic is that without a heart they use memories to form the parts of a personality and emotions. For them, memories have become an essential element."

He has recently brought up the question of whether or not all Nobodies (not just Roxas) have hearts in the Days Ultimania. I think we have our answer. They don't. None of them do. But the memories can act as a "heart," like with the replicas. The stronger their ties are with the chain of memories, the stronger they can feel. Rather than feigning emotion on a superficial level based on memory or trying to reject those feelings altogether, some Nobodies, when having a bond with their heart through memories that tie the two together, can experience emotion. It explains Axel. And Namine.

[LlaveEspada 0]

just make this a sticky lol.

ok but really I cant see some of this. Yes Repliku and Xion are made of memories. Roxas is a nobody but born of special case. Personally I doubt the Terra=Xehanort theory. DS we assume is the monster filed with darkness and MX wishes for someone to defeat him so I can see more a Terra+DS=Xehanort. And Ven is "erased" so what that means right now we dont know