Namine's Origin

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

I couldn't accept Namine being a Nobody from the day I knew when she was conceived.
I could've remotely accepted it had it happened when AtW Originally did, but that's obviously not the case. Namine being a Nobody is something I've had issues with for a small forever, and no, not because she's Kairi's.
Even if I go by your words, a Nobody = Body + Soul. Seeing how even by your logic she's lacking those, sorry. She could be a lot of things, including a true Shadow, but not a Nobody. Tagging it as "special" isn't good enough for me.
To top it all, my good sir -
Where was it said that what you described, in and of itself, isn't what Unbirths are? And Namine, already based as made up to maintain human form, simply did so?
Nothing.
Possibility holds.

Argumentum Ad Ignorantiam love- just because something hasn't been disproved doesn't mean you can use it in a context as if it was proven (ie what Unbirths are- it's a logical fallacy used in debate). But it has been disproved. Actually, it hasn't. It didn't need to be, because the knowledge of what Namine is has already been established.

And I already said that was a general term for Nobodies. As I said, to be more precise, a Nobody is the "other" non-existent self left over when a heart is released. If Roxas has a heart as speculated- does that mean he isn't Sora's Nobody? Nope, even though that isn't in the slightest bit conventional and goes against that definition (I could go into why he would still be a Nobody, what with it not being Sora's heart, thus not making him exist and whatnot, but you get the picture). Similarly, Xemnas, for whatever reason, has been suggested to be a special Nobody by Nomura. He's still a Nobody.

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

Because, in case you missed me repeatedly saying it, no, Namine being a Nobody isn't something I can logically grasp. She isn't an ideal like Justice. Justice doesn't walk and talk to people and mess with their Memories. Justice doesn't have a form people can see and touch. Another broken example by you, but seeing how long it took me to get people to shut up about the ones I brought up, I've the right to complain.
I also already presented why to me it hasn't been established. Thoroughly. You disagreeing with me doesn't mean I'm toying with you or stomping my foot down. I just sincerely can't accept the way things have been presented thus far.
AtW is biased.
AtW probably didn't know enough about Unbirths if he knew they were separate from the Heartless and the Nobodies.
Nomura doesn't talk about Unbirths even now when the game's been confirmed, as opposed to Nobodies which were a fact since CoM and the first final mix - meaning, before the game that was supposed to have them centered. Unbirths didn't have such grace, so Nomura saying repeatedly that Namine is a "painfully-special Nobody" instead of sneaking around it isn't an argument that could sway me.

It really saddens me since from how you put it, it's obvious this theory and your failure in convincing me away from it has made you think less of me. Not much I can do about it though, seeing how what differs us is difference in belief and how to interpret what's been said. I mean, it's not even denying that Xehanort or AtW or Nomura said what they said, it's us debating about what they said and how it connects to various events - which is exactly what debating theories is all about.

I'm calling this off as agreeing to disagree, and hope to see you again in the next theory either of us would conjure :3

It... wasn't a broken example. All I was doing was trying to convey that her existence is more abstract- you were taking it out of context.

Of course AtW is biased. Nomura isn't though. Well, no, he probably is, but it's coming from him, not just from an in game character who's racist against Nobodies. Hell, you're biased. Just look at the reason you came up with this! Nomura saying that isn't an argument, it's just a fact. No, I'm not trying to shove that in your face, but it's not like it is a theory, or able to be interpreted in more than one way.

I don't know where you got the idea that I "think less of" you, but you're mistaken. Perhaps it's because you haven't been on the receiving ends of my arguments like this, but I think you can ask just about anyone that I'm an asshole of a persistent person when it comes to defending something. All I'm doing is scrutinizing your idea, and, hey, I've gotten more than enough of that with all the theories I've came up with (Old theories thread?). It really isn't fair just to call it off. You can choose to think less of me for that, I wouldn't blame you, but that's just how I roll.

[Karate]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

Perhaps it's because you haven't been on the receiving ends of my arguments like this, but I think you can ask just about anyone that I'm an asshole of a persistent person when it comes to defending something. All I'm doing is scrutinizing your idea, and, hey, I've gotten more than enough of that with all the theories I've came up with (Old theories thread?). It really isn't fair just to call it off. You can choose to think less of me for that, I wouldn't blame you, but that's just how I roll.

Well put Gracey.

[SilverJ-17]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

He says that Namine never became a Nobody, but he doubles back on himself and later says with confidence that she is. She's just special. He was even originally posing at the time that Namine came directly from Kairi and not from Sora.

Can't denial exist in KH? Maybe, Ansem somehow knew about Unbirths and didn't want to believe that one could even still exist. Maybe, he knew (or believed) that they were far more horrible than what exists at the present. Alternately, maybe he didn't want to believe that there was something else besides a nobody or a heartless, something that he had no idea about. Maybe, he had to know that there was only heartless and nobodies (and regular people.. but I didn't feel like mentioing this before..), nothing else. Oh, and by know, I mean he wanted to believe that the process of losing a heart was clear cut thing.. Heartless and Nobody.. nothing else..

Personally, I think denial also might be a factor in the scene where Riku says that Xion's keyblade is a fake, but let's not get off-topic.

[SufferingAngel]

Yey TGS.

Xion - a special Nobody that looks and sounds like Kairi.

Xion: "Do I not exist?"
Axel: "What do you want to do, Xion?"
Xion: "I... I want to be together with two people."
Roxas: "Well, then come back."
Xion: "... But I can't return as it is now. How is it possible for two people to be the same?"

[together with] Two people - Sora and Riku.
Two people to be the same - Xion and Kairi. A question remains why she thought there would be two instead of her disappearing into Kairi like Namine and Roxas did into Kairi and Sora, yet we'll assume for now that only became a fact -
1) After Roxas did so with Sora in KH2, or
2) When Xion herelf was the first to do so in Days, thus 'returning' to Kairi!!!

Xion: "Will you tell me about it? About Sora, about Sora and the girl he's always together with."
Riku: "You mean Kairi?"
Xion: "Kairi... The girl looks like me."

Again, obvious similarities. They wouldn't have said they look the same if it wasn't true even beyond game graphics.

That would make it so that Kairi didn't only have a Nobody out of thin air, but also - two Nobodies.
Excuse me while I find that painfully hard to believe.

[SilverJ-17]

Even if they were to post scans of Xion's face tommorow, I think they've just created a bigger mystery to make up for the scans. I mean, now we'll want to know whether she really is Kairi's nobody and if so, how did Kairi have a second nobody. Hmm..

Roxas = came into existance after Sora's heart basically fell to pieces..
Namine = came into existance after Kairi's heart left Sora
Xion = Assuming she is indeed Kairi's nobody.......?

Yep, we got a mystery on our hands. Btw... I've looked on the front page just before getting on, so I already read the snippets in your post. Man.. I can't wait for Days to come out, even if it isn't as good, game-play/ graphic-wise as BBS, it's still got a good share of mysteries. Both games seem to be screaming that they're going to have a great storyline, as does Coded, but since it's a cellphone game at the moment, I don't have as much care for it. It's still sounding pretty good, but I'd rather not play games on cellphones.

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by SilverJ

Even if they were to post scans of Xion's face tommorow, I think they've just created a bigger mystery to make up for the scans. I mean, now we'll want to know whether she really is Kairi's nobody and if so, how did Kairi have a second nobody. Hmm..

I think that the only way out of her being Kairi's Nobody in light of what we've seen thus far is her being based on Sora's Memories, based on how his Memories are messed up worse than we thought.

Roxas = came into existance after Sora's heart basically fell to pieces..
Namine = came into existance after Kairi's heart left Sora
Xion = Assuming she is indeed Kairi's nobody.......?

I tend to believe DiZ got served. The reason he said Namine was created when Roxas was and not his initial theory of Namine being born when the Islands went poof was because that process lacked a Heartless.
And yet that's the only occasion we know of that makes any sort of sense for Kairi to have spawned a Nobody. Her Heart did leave two Bodies, after all, and that's the 'second' time.

Both games seem to be screaming that they're going to have a great storyline, as does Coded,

Duh, Watanabe games.

[Reneeski]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

I think that the only way out of her being Kairi's Nobody in light of what we've seen thus far is her being based on Sora's Memories, based on how his Memories are messed up worse than we thought.



I tend to believe DiZ got served. The reason he said Namine was created when Roxas was and not his initial theory of Namine being born when the Islands went poof was because that process lacked a Heartless.
And yet that's the only occasion we know of that makes any sort of sense for Kairi to have spawned a Nobody. Her Heart did leave two Bodies, after all, and that's the 'second' time.



Duh, Watanabe games.

SA wins again

[SilverJ-17]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

I think that the only way out of her being Kairi's Nobody in light of what we've seen thus far is her being based on Sora's Memories, based on how his Memories are messed up worse than we thought.

I tend to believe DiZ got served. The reason he said Namine was created when Roxas was and not his initial theory of Namine being born when the Islands went poof was because that process lacked a Heartless.
And yet that's the only occasion we know of that makes any sort of sense for Kairi to have spawned a Nobody. Her Heart did leave two Bodies, after all, and that's the 'second' time.

Duh, Watanabe games.

Lol.. at how DiZ might have been served. Actually, if Xion is indeed Kairi's nobody, I could see how Namine would be the first one, because she's the least nobody-ish and lacks both a body and a soul, which nobodies are supposedly made of. Xion probably would be the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body. That actually makes sense imo, as Xion has or can wield a keyblade, (if she really did "take it" from Roxas, like some of the TGS reports mentioned..).. which is a trait of Sora's. Hmm.. it does seem to together well.

Xion: Female heart.. female nobody.. However, since she might of been the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body, one or more of Sora's traits crossed over to her. (Xion)

Ehh.. I noticed that Grace Assassin had posted how the unbirth logo looks a bit like the memory thing for CoM and a broken one if that.. If that holds any truth, then Namine being an unbirth might be likely, as the fact that the CoM memory thing being broken and crossed might mean a being, lacking memories and reverted to a "primitive and demonic" form. (unbirth) Lol.. that could actually somewhat tie in my theory with yours. I so can't wait for all three of those KH games..

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by SilverJ

Lol.. at how DiZ might have been served. Actually, if Xion is indeed Kairi's nobody, I could see how Namine would be the first one, because she's the least nobody-ish and lacks both a body and a soul, which nobodies are supposedly made of.

Which wouldn't make her a Nobody at all, imo XD hence the theory in this thread.

Xion probably would be the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body.

But that's been confirmed to have been Namine :\ Namine and Roxas were created at the same time, unless Xion was too. If that's true, Nomura someone will die.

That actually makes sense imo, as Xion has or can wield a keyblade, (if she really did "take it" from Roxas, like some of the TGS reports mentioned..).. which is a trait of Sora's. Hmm.. it does seem to together well.

Alternatively, she could've wielded it in a manner like how Kairi used the Keyblade Riku gave her in KH2, until explain us how that happened better than "Ah, she's a PoH and Riku was willing, so *shrug*"

Xion: Female heart.. female nobody.. However, since she might of been the result of Kairi's heart leaving Sora's body, one or more of Sora's traits crossed over to her. (Xion)

But again, that's Namine unless someone needs to be killed. And Namine as far as we know couldn't wield a Keyblade (though I do like to ponder maybe Namine did get Wielding powers, and then when she disappeared into Kairi for the first time after meeting with Riku, Kairi got that ability from her).

Ehh.. I noticed that Grace Assassin had posted how the unbirth logo looks a bit like the memory thing for CoM and a broken one if that.. If that holds any truth, then Namine being an unbirth might be likely, as the fact that the CoM memory thing being broken and crossed might mean a being, lacking memories and reverted to a "primitive and demonic" form. (unbirth) Lol.. that could actually somewhat tie in my theory with yours. I so can't wait for all three of those KH games..

:3 <3