Need Some Input

[Grace Assassin]

Unfortunately this is a part of another Unbirth theory. But since the forums are a little dry as of late, I thought, "What the hell, why not."

Anyway, I was thinking about the theory that, somehow, Unbirth are memories (especially since BbS will have a focus on Xehanort's memories and Days will focus on memories as well). It's logical because memories have no means by which they could reproduce (Heartless have darkness, Nobodies have Nothing), and since, as Namine said, memories are not naturally lost (only forgotten). So if, say, Master Xehanort was creating them, then once MX was gone, they would stop being created. And that would explain their disappearance, seeing as how they'd have no means by which they could keep producing.

Then I thought about how the Unbirth could potentially be the "starting point" of the Heartless and Nobodies. Nomura makes it sound as though the Unbirths are precursors for the other two enemies. So I started wondering about how Heartless and Nobodies are created:

1. The Heart is separated from the Body and Soul
2. Darkness engulfs the Heart and creates a Heartless
3. The leftover Body and Soul are reborn as a Nobody

But then I realized something. There's a fourth, though minor, step in the process:

4. The Memories leave the Heart and go to the Nobody (This is confirmed by various Nomura interviews as well as the Secret Ansem Reports. I don't feel like looking them up right now, but if you want proof, just ask. Also, don't bring up Roxas as a contradiction. The memories WERE going to go to him, until Sora was revived from his Heartless state.)

So while I pondered how this fourth step could possibly act as a "starting point," another question popped into my mind:

Where do the memories go when no Nobody is created?

That question is what I'd like some feedback on. While I don't think this has anything to do with Unbirths, it's still puzzling. Do the memories go somewhere? Or do they stay in the Heartless? (Problem with that second question is... If the memories stay in the Heartless, why, then, would they go to the Nobody in the first place when a Nobody is created if they could just stay inside the Heartless?)

That's the bulk of what I wanted to say, but now I want to introduce something. I thought of this theory and while I doubt it, I'd find it amusing to share.

So on the topic of the potential for when no Nobody is created, I started thinking about the past when Nobodies and Heartless weren't around. And I thought, "So what happened to the memories back then when someone was lost to the darkness?" We know that people did get lost to darkness, as AtW himself witnessed it.

I also thought about how the term Birth by Sleep, which is more likely than not connected to the Unbirths, could be a reference to the Awakening of a Keyblade wielder.

Since Birth by Sleep could be connected to Unbirths, that would mean Birth by Sleep, if the Unbirth memory theory is right, is also connected to memories. This statement provides evidence:

"Hidden Days are Born from Sleep."

(An old trailer for the three new KH games ended in saying "Hidden" for coded, "Days are" for 358/2 Days and "Born from Sleep" for BbS to form one sentence).

Hidden Days. Could that mean lost memories?

Anyway, using all of these theories and info, I came up with this:

When someone chosen to wield the keyblade fails their Dive into the Heart (when their darkness consumes them in that final fight, like Sora and Roxas with Darkside and Twilight Thorn, only they aren't strong enough to overcome it) their being perishes. Because the heart is consumed by darkness, the same process that happens with Heartless and Nobodies happens to that failed Keyblade wielder, the memories are released. Somehow, MX turns these memories into Unbirths, born of the person's sleep (maybe they manifest in Castle Oblivion or something).

Amusing and mildly interesting, no? (No, I don't believe it, but I had to let it out)

[SufferingAngel]

I think this might explain DS more than Unbirths as a whole (Wielder who failed his Destati).
This makes me wonder though about Roxas, for a lot of reasons.
- He's not supposed to have a Heart to Dive into, persay (though debatable)
- Namine was there in a somewhat physical manner to pull him out oO
Random ponderings.

As for the Memories and what happens to them when there's no Nobody, you can equally ask what happens to the Memories when the Nobody is defeated before the Heartless is - and we know what happens then so I think it's the same thing. The Memories go where they can - be it the Nobody or the Darkness.

Meh. Don't have more input at the moment hope this wasn't too lame.

[Vic Viper]

When I first saw how long this was, normally, my first reaction would be to refuse to read it. But, then I figured it's GA, so I'm sure it'll be useful, or at least interesting, so I did. I'm sure that Unbirths are either referring to the soul or memories, because no other (for lack of a better phrase) 'part of the body' has ever been introduced.

As for that part at the end with "Hidden Days are Born from Sleep," the only reason why I don't believe it's possible is for the fact that I don't think Nomura would even put that much thought into to it and actually come up with something like that. It is an excellent idea, however.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

I think this might explain DS more than Unbirths as a whole (Wielder who failed his Destati).
This makes me wonder though about Roxas, for a lot of reasons.
- He's not supposed to have a Heart to Dive into, persay (though debatable)
- Namine was there in a somewhat physical manner to pull him out oO
Random ponderings.

Hmm, possibly. People have even suspected that DS is an Unbirth, so..
- I personally say he does but I'd prefer not to bring up a debate over that heh.
- Never understood that. Ever. If she can go into his Dive to the Heart, how much does she actually know?

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

As for the Memories and what happens to them when there's no Nobody, you can equally ask what happens to the Memories when the Nobody is defeated before the Heartless is - and we know what happens then so I think it's the same thing. The Memories go where they can - be it the Nobody or the Darkness.

That's an interesting point. However, it cannot be as simple as the memories going "where they can." Let's say memories stay with the Heartless when no Nobody is created and go to the Nobody when one is created. It can't be that they just go where they can. As I said earlier, if that was the case, then why don't the memories stay in the Heartless when a Nobody is created? If memories can stay in the Heartless when no Nobody is born, I'd imagine that it could be the same for when one IS born....

When I first saw how long this was, normally, my first reaction would be to refuse to read it. But, then I figured it's GA, so I'm sure it'll be useful, or at least interesting, so I did.

Sorry, it is a bit of a ramble. Looking at it from a neutral point of view, even I don't think it's quite worth reading, but, again this section's been dry for the past few days.

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

That's an interesting point. However, it cannot be as simple as the memories going "where they can." Let's say memories stay with the Heartless when no Nobody is created and go to the Nobody when one is created. It can't be that they just go where they can. As I said earlier, if that was the case, then why don't the memories stay in the Heartless when a Nobody is created? If memories can stay in the Heartless when no Nobody is born, I'd imagine that it could be the same for when one IS born....

I worded that poorly. It's not "go where they can" in generally, but more the options they have after the Heartless moved on. The Darkness doesn't seem to have interest in the Memories for the most part (present day, not before BBS), unless the Heart is strong enough to break away from the Darkness as Sora did.
Though the more I think about it the more I confuse myself. What happens to the Memories of Nobodies whose Heartless were purified by the Keyblade? Or was Sora a special case because he retained a "Form", so the Memories could come back, having a Sense of Self to cling onto?
If you look at it like that, it remotely made sense. You played TWEWY so I'll use a reference to make my point. First week.
[spoiler]Neku's Memories being described as the thing that defines him the most.[/spoiler]
What if Memories go where there's Identity? A Heartless has none, and later on turns into a floating Heart, yet Sora regained his own, so the Memories returned. Namine came from two different people, thus her Identity was dimmed, making for no Memories of Kairi and only a work-around relation to Sora's.

In relation to Unbirths coming from Memories, that could be when the Sense of Self was disturbed (as opposed to Lost as is the case with the Heartless, who - like their name - lost something).
That could make for the Un instead of the Less - they have it, it's just... messed up.

...I'm rambling and I lost myself orz

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

I worded that poorly. It's not "go where they can" in generally, but more the options they have after the Heartless moved on. The Darkness doesn't seem to have interest in the Memories for the most part (present day, not before BBS), unless the Heart is strong enough to break away from the Darkness as Sora did.

I'm confused as to why you say the Darkness is only interested in memories when the Heart is strong enough to break away from the Darkness. If the memories stay with the Heartless when no Nobody is made, that would be considered "interested" since the darkness has the memories. But, no Nobody means a weak heart, not a strong one.

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

[spoiler]Neku's Memories being described as the thing that defines him the most.[/spoiler]
What if Memories go where there's Identity? A Heartless has none, and later on turns into a floating Heart, yet Sora regained his own, so the Memories returned. Namine came from two different people, thus her Identity was dimmed, making for no Memories of Kairi and only a work-around relation to Sora's.

I see what you're saying. But memories are what make a Nobody retain identity, they don't go to a Nobody because they already have one. The heart is "proof of life." It is the core of someone's being in KH. Why the memories would go to the Nobody because of "Identity" I have no clue if they could just stay with the heart, the "proof of life."

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

In relation to Unbirths coming from Memories, that could be when the Sense of Self was disturbed (as opposed to Lost as is the case with the Heartless, who - like their name - lost something).
That could make for the Un instead of the Less - they have it, it's just... messed up.

...I'm rambling and I lost myself orz

Lost me a bit too. lol

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

I'm confused as to why you say the Darkness is only interested in memories when the Heart is strong enough to break away from the Darkness. If the memories stay with the Heartless when no Nobody is made, that would be considered "interested" since the darkness has the memories. But, no Nobody means a weak heart, not a strong one.

I said uninterested. Otherwise why make the Heart leave the Memories to begin with? Unless the Heart is strong enough, in which case it beats the Darkness.
Is what I meant ono

I see what you're saying. But memories are what make a Nobody retain identity, they don't go to a Nobody because they already have one. The heart is "proof of life." It is the core of someone's being in KH. Why the memories would go to the Nobody because of "Identity" I have no clue if they could just stay with the heart, the "proof of life."

The Darkness broke the tie between the Heart and the Memories. They couldn't stay with the Heart.
Sora having a strong Heart enabled him to maintain his bond and eventually reclaim his Memories from Roxas once he was de-Heartless-ized, leaving Roxas with no memories.
And more than "go" to the Nobody, they just stayed there. They were cast off together.
Then again, Namine, albeit an exception, can be seen as an example. She had a sense of self yet lacked Memories. (I'd have brought Roxas up too for having maintained his Sense of Self but you say he has a Heart so it's irrelevant in this discussion)

What I was trying to say about Unbirths is that the Sense of Self, possibly based on Memories though not necesarilly, was disrupted.
Heartless = the loss of the Self.
Nobodies = the remains of the Self.
Unbirths = the Self, deformed.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

I said uninterested. Otherwise why make the Heart leave the Memories to begin with? Unless the Heart is strong enough, in which case it beats the Darkness.
Is what I meant ono.

You said, "The Darkness doesn't seem to have interest in the Memories for the most part (present day, not before BBS), unless the Heart is strong enough to break away from the Darkness as Sora did.

In other words, that the Darkness is interested when the heart is strong enough to break away.

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

The Darkness broke the tie between the Heart and the Memories. They couldn't stay with the Heart.
Sora having a strong Heart enabled him to maintain his bond and eventually reclaim his Memories from Roxas once he was de-Heartless-ized, leaving Roxas with no memories.
And more than "go" to the Nobody, they just stayed there. They were cast off together.
Then again, Namine, albeit an exception, can be seen as an example. She had a sense of self yet lacked Memories. (I'd have brought Roxas up too for having maintained his Sense of Self but you say he has a Heart so it's irrelevant in this discussion).

Then why break the tie with the Heart and the Memories in a person with a strong heart when no tie is broken, hypothetically (if the memories stay with the Heartless), for a weak heart? You yourself said that the Darkness is only interested in memories of a strong heart.

Sora's memories returning had nothing to do with the strength of his heart- it was because of Kairi restoring his being. And he did lose his memories, and they were going to Roxas. The Secret Ansem Reports talk about how Roxas only had memories for a short time, and then lost them due to Sora's short time as a heartless. Anyway, if you watch the original scene of Sora turning into a heartless, you'll notice he describes the process of forgetting everything.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you because I'm entirely confused right now.

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

What I was trying to say about Unbirths is that the Sense of Self, possibly based on Memories though not necesarilly, was disrupted.
Heartless = the loss of the Self.
Nobodies = the remains of the Self.
Unbirths = the Self, deformed.

Like the theory that the Unbirth are a whole being engulfed by darkness rather than just a heart?

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

You said, "The Darkness doesn't seem to have interest in the Memories for the most part (present day, not before BBS), unless the Heart is strong enough to break away from the Darkness as Sora did.

...I hate miswording. Sorry for being unclear.
That unless wasn't related v.v it was mostly me thinking in a mess.
What I meant was -
Darkness = breaking ties between Heart and Memories.
unless
Heart = strong enough to remake the ties, breaking away from Darkness.
x.x;;;

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you because I'm entirely confused right now.

I think we both lost me by now xD I hope I at least explained that last bit enough.

Like the theory that the Unbirth are a whole being engulfed by darkness rather than just a heart?

Well, I don't really wanna go there, but Anti-Sora is a good example for the Being as a whole being engulfed, only it's supplied by the Drive System, and the process to created Unbirths is supposedly gone.
As for what I said, it was mostly for the part of the self being corrupted as opposed to Lost. I don't really wanna put up more of a theory behind this at the moment.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

...I hate miswording. Sorry for being unclear.
That unless wasn't related v.v it was mostly me thinking in a mess.
What I meant was -
Darkness = breaking ties between Heart and Memories.
unless
Heart = strong enough to remake the ties, breaking away from Darkness.
x.x;;;

Oh. I understand.

But basically we're back at the beginning- still no clue as to what happens to the memories of a weak hearted person.

Hmm. Maybe they're just scattered? When Marluxia wanted Namine to erase Sora's memories, it was going to make his heart collapse into darkness. So maybe that's what would happen to a weak hearted person?

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

Well, I don't really wanna go there, but Anti-Sora is a good example for the Being as a whole being engulfed, only it's supplied by the Drive System, and the process to created Unbirths is supposedly gone.
As for what I said, it was mostly for the part of the self being corrupted as opposed to Lost. I don't really wanna put up more of a theory behind this at the moment.

Ah- I see.

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

Hmm. Maybe they're just scattered? When Marluxia wanted Namine to erase Sora's memories, it was going to make his heart collapse into darkness. So maybe that's what would happen to a weak hearted person?

I'm not sure if that's what it meant. They never explained it, or I just missed it :\ Sora at that point only had Memories of Namine, so Namine erasing herself would leave Sora as Repliku was when Namine mind-wiped him.
The Heart collapsing into Darkness makes me think of turning into a Heartless again, but then again, if he knew Sora was only a Heart - which he knew - it probably changes the rules of the game.
v.v

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

I'm not sure if that's what it meant. They never explained it, or I just missed it :\ Sora at that point only had Memories of Namine, so Namine erasing herself would leave Sora as Repliku was when Namine mind-wiped him.
The Heart collapsing into Darkness makes me think of turning into a Heartless again, but then again, if he knew Sora was only a Heart - which he knew - it probably changes the rules of the game.
v.v

Now I'm the one miswording, heh.

I wasn't saying that it was an instance of what would happen to a weak hearted person if they lost their heart. It's really just what gave me the thought. If erased memories can make a heart collapse, then can a collapsed (lost) heart make memories erased? By erased, it could mean actually deleted or perhaps scattered.

No, I don't think it necessarily changes the rules. Axel was trying to get Sora to turn back into a heartless in KH2, so really it would just be the same process- just without a Nobody since, by technicality Sora didn't actually have a body and soul at that point (He was like Xehanort's Heartless).

[SufferingAngel]

Originally Posted by Grace Assassin

I wasn't saying that it was an instance of what would happen to a weak hearted person if they lost their heart. It's really just what gave me the thought. If erased memories can make a heart collapse, then can a collapsed (lost) heart make memories erased? By erased, it could mean actually deleted or perhaps scattered.

That's an interesting concept. o,o

No, I don't think it necessarily changes the rules. Axel was trying to get Sora to turn back into a heartless in KH2, so really it would just be the same process- just without a Nobody since, by technicality Sora didn't actually have a body and soul at that point (He was like Xehanort's Heartless).

Uh, wasn't the reason he was trying to get Sora to turn into a Heartless because him and Roxas fused again? That would mean that once Sora was a Heartless, Roxas would be "free" again.

[PyroRiku]

i really hope they make the games not completely centered around memories cause CoM made my head spin.

[Grace Assassin]

Originally Posted by SufferingAngel

Uh, wasn't the reason he was trying to get Sora to turn into a Heartless because him and Roxas fused again? That would mean that once Sora was a Heartless, Roxas would be "free" again.

I just facepalmed. Was not thinking.

But nonetheless, Axel aside, I think we can agree that the rest bears true: "so really it would just be the same process- just without a Nobody since, by technicality Sora didn't actually have a body and soul at that point (He was like Xehanort's Heartless)."

Sora is like a free heart bobbing around, whetting the appetites of Heartless. If he goes from a heartless to human form, undoubtedly he can go back if he were to be overwhelmed by darkness.