Did anyone dislike Xion?

[Goldpanner]

In Days, Xigbar and Saix delivered, but I found Xaldin, Demyx, and Luxord to be too one dimensional. At least not all of them remain underdeveloped.

They're exactly who I was talking about, if you read that tl;dr thing in my post before that XD Demyx the waster, Luxord the suave, and Xaldin the grouchy. Sorry that I lumped them all together when I said that.

Though it's funny that this notion of the CoM members being better comes up constantly when half of them are equally qualified as "flat undeveloped stereotypes."

Yeah, they're just the evil villains in CoM. When it's their turn to be the main characters, though, you don't want that happening. Not that stereotypical villains make for good writing either... but I guess I found them interesting anyway.

[Audo]

KH is like LOST. With every answer given, you can bet two more questions will crop up in its spot. BBS will not answer everything, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it left us even more dumbfounded.


and I must be the only lone soul who actually liked the countless ice-cream scenes...

[rokudamia2]

I'd rather have she not existed in the first place but that's just me.(:
Die/Disappear mean the same thing KH, just to let ya know. Technically she was absorbed by Roxas, but did that really change him or anything? No. It made no real difference what happened to her, because she wasn't important to the main plot in the first place.
What importance could she possibly hold to future games? Nomura pretty much sealed the deal with everyone losing their memories of her. Unless they plan on some miracle to happen or something. Like Namine somehow coming out of Kairi and making everyone remember Xion. But what would she do? Nothing. There is no real point of her doing that.

Your milage may varry on her importince though.
I also agree with the lost comparison

[Luap]

I'd rather have she not existed in the first place but that's just me.(:
Die/Disappear mean the same thing KH, just to let ya know. Technically she was absorbed by Roxas, but did that really change him or anything? No. It made no real difference what happened to her, because she wasn't important to the main plot in the first place.
What importance could she possibly hold to future games? Nomura pretty much sealed the deal with everyone losing their memories of her. Unless they plan on some miracle to happen or something. Like Namine somehow coming out of Kairi and making everyone remember Xion. But what would she do? Nothing. There is no real point of her doing that.

by Disappear I mean that he should of ran-off and leave everyone like O_O not die.
I was going off of if she had to be in the game though. I would have rather had a game that answer questions and had a good story w/o Xion.

[Goldpanner]

and I must be the only lone soul who actually liked the countless ice-cream scenes...

I would have liked them a lot more if I could switch off from interpreting them as scenes for fangirls to insert themselves as Xion onto the clock tower... I mean. At the risk of sounding bad, I would have had no problem with the idea of having them after each mission if it were only Axel and Roxas up there.

[gelandporn]

They're exactly who I was talking about, if you read that tl;dr thing in my post before that XD Demyx the waster, Luxord the suave, and Xaldin the grouchy. Sorry that I lumped them all together when I said that.

Luxord, tragically, being the worst of the three of them, imo.

I can only imagine how Nomura made these scenarios.
*Roxas dialogue*
Luxord: -A contrived response with gambling wordplay that serves no purpose for his own development, but merely advances the plot in some minor way-
*copypasta*

They made no attempt to make the "Life is a game" theme subtle.
Not that it's a bad thing for a character to be based on, but the way it was used in Days was shallow.

[*TwilightNight*]

And I already felt sad for Roxas about the getting lied to, getting used and losing everything. It was massive dejavu trying to twinge those same heartstrings again.

I think the main difference between Roxas/Riku Replica, and basically almost everyone in the story sans Kairi or Sora, I suppose, who have a sort of serious, sad story to tell, it's that their character flaws separated the sympathetic. Hence, the realism. Not everyone's going to be perfect, do the right thing, etc. As listed by what I'm experiencing right now in the game, it's the typical forced suffering that keeps turning me off. And somehow, I know it isn't going to end any time soon.

Xion: Perfect little angel, did nothing wrong, and if she did, it was for the sake of her friends, or for something else's sake. Was cute, cheerful, nice, sweet, kind. Had the good-looking boys, in audience perception anyway, be all over her due to her terrible, sad fate, and have villains such as Saix, be a complete jerk ass to get the "poor Xion" motif going on. She remained a do-gooder, and died a do gooder. No visible flaws at all. At all. It's too idealistic for my taste. I mean, I could predict exactly what she was going to do and how.

Then, you get to other characters who also had sad destinies. But they also go toward the more Organization theme, to a lesser extent. Yes, they are rejected "people", or prejudiced beings who aren't meant to exist, but they have their negative aspects to let it not become beyond wussification and not a villain group. I kind of dwelved into Naminé earlier on, due to her own attachment to Sora. It's undeniable that she wanted him to choose to remember CO, and to stay there, to have a friend, someone who cares. Showing signs of selfishness to an extent, but willing to put it aside. In some twisted way, she probably did want someone for her like that. For herself. Just not the way it ended up being done with the mind rape. Naminé doesn't have as many flaws as let's say, the serious characters, but they're there. And the lines in her game, or anything, doesn't equate too much to deal with unless you connect and really dig into it. You had so many other stuff going on at the same time as well, with other characters. In fact, CoM is what I wished Days was like in terms of interaction. Own private conversations, almost equal screen time, etc. But away from that, what about the other serious characters?

Riku: Self-explainable. The guy had to redeem himself through the series for the shit he pulled. And his personality in the beginning before his sinking into Darkness wasn't exactly inspiring.
Axel: Self-explainable again. To the point of redemption too.
Riku Replica: Worse fate than Xion, in my opinion. But also, they kept a certain degree of where not to cross. His personality wasn't the most likeable one: aggresive, short-tempered, etc. He did not steal screen time, and showed up when we needed to know about him, just enough to get his story. And with his negative behavior, while what was happening to him was worth to bawl over, how he was took it away somewhat. He was never painted as the poor, selfless victim whose fate was against him. So it wasn't shoved into my face, or made to the point where you think his whole basis of creation was to be some tragic woobie. Unlike another replica we know.
Roxas: Same thing as above. Yes, his story was sad, and relatable. Tragic, just as much. Yet, once more, character flaws. Easily capable of being aggresive, cold, throws anger tantrums, seems like a snarker, somewhat arrogant, selfish, comes to fight Sora to test him, and refuses to give up the life he lived, until he has no choice. Not heroic at all. He's calm, yes, can be sweet, laughs, etc. But by damn, does he have some character flaws. And his reactions border to realistic, making people actually like him for that (I cheered when he was shouting Saïx off hard in Days. A punk type of move, like if that's anything new when it comes to him, but that was awesome). He isn't perfect, and by no means, did he have people catering to "poor him". When he fainted or had something happening, we never saw him scooped dramatically into someone's arms (and I'm not even going to go there, if you know what I mean). Heck, the only one who really turned out helping was Naminé, and I already said who knows about her. Diz was made the" Saïx", but instead of being the sad victim to sympathize with, Roxas turns around and gives what is considered a negative trait, giving him a piece of his mind about how he hates him and came to even attack him. And while I love the kid to death, I didn't feel all that sad in his KH2 tale. I mean, yeah, it pulled heart strings, but I didn't come out crying or something. He got off better than most.

Xion had nothing to balance this in terms of personality or character. She had no negative traits to probably turn people off, or get someone to think she was thinking irrationally. So she remained again, cute, cheerful, nice, sweet, kind. Had the good-looking boys, in audience view, be all over her due to her terrible, sad fate, and have villains such as Saix, be complete jerk asses. It's like everyone was being completely mean to her, poor tool that she is, or didn't care, and keeps going, and going about how used she is. Just be sympathetic and pitiful. The people who escape the actual not caring are, of course, the main characters and the pretty boys. What do you know? And ironically, this sort of perfection is what made us have this conversation in the present instead of an actual flaw, which is at least understandable, to persecute.

This is coming from the terms of why some refer to her as a Mary Sue, and don't add in other characters in the process (er, minus Kairi >.>. And sometimes, Sora, actually).

[Ikkin]

That's how it went down in Days--playing KHII, you have no clue that he was a cute kid for the whole year. I thought that him having no heart AND no memories of having one would make for one hard kid. And even if he did have to have emotions cause of Ven or whatever, he was under the illusion that he didn't. Emotions or not, he still would have been much more interesting if he was a little colder.

BUT that wouldn't work in a game targeted at children. They need their heroes to be good people that they can relate to. It's hard for children to relate to emotionles punks.

In KH2, we only ever saw the real Roxas in a few scenes which showed him at his worst. If all we ever saw of Sora was, say, his reaction to Larxene threatening to smash Namine's charm and him ditching Donald and Goofy because they started questioning his devotion to Namine, you'd have no clue he was a cute kid, either. =P

And I still think that Days' characterization makes a lot of sense for the series as a whole once you consider that Roxas' lack of memories includes a lot more than simply forgetting what emotions are like. Roxas had no context under which to want anything, either, and single-minded determination doesn't really make much sense for a character like that. He's a blank slate that got filled in by memories of Sora and the part of Axel that was nostalgic for his childhood - what reason would he have to act that way?

Besides, it's not like Roxas wasn't allowed to be nasty when it made sense. He walked right past an injured Beast in one mission, took three missions to finally get around to helping Tinkerbell, volunteered for a mission to kill Riku just so he could go to Castle Oblivion, was never overly active in patching things up with his friends, and turned into his "original" snappish self whenever there was a reason for it. I doubt Roxas was really designed to be "safe," and I think that making him colder probably would have just reduced his emotional range.

(As for kids not relating to emotionless punks... are you serious? Kids themselves love that kind of stuff- it's their parents who aren't so thrilled with it.)

Ahh. Well I am a seasoned slash shipper, and dissecting interactions to judge all subtle nuances of romantic intention is second nature to me :P I need to find an off button for that.

...I'm not so sure that being a seasoned shipper is the best credential there, since so much of shipping is the ability to pull all the strands of relationship potential (intentional or not) together into one big shippy thread.

Then again, to me, the fact that RokuShi would essentially be selfcest overrides all romantic hinting less subtle than a Keyblade to the face. =P

EXACTLY ;__________; They were meant to be my villains. My fleshed out, nasty villains. Roxas too. But they couldn't be bothered figuring out how to handle that properly when targeting it at children, and so instead just left most of them as villainy cardboard cutouts.

I'm not really sure what you were expecting. Even if they weren't worried about traumatizing the kiddies, I don't see why the Org should have been all that much nastier when their only goal is to get their hearts back. I see a lot of fanfic where they kill people or set Heartless on them just to see what it looks like when a heart is lost... but they wouldn't really gain all too much from that, so why would Squenix want the story to go there?

Not to mention, they don't have hearts, so they react solely based on how they remember their Other acting. That's not really conducive to character development, I'd imagine.

Xion had nothing to balance this in terms of personality or character. She had no negative traits to probably turn people off, or get someone to think she was thinking irrationally. So she remained again, cute, cheerful, nice, sweet, kind. Had the good-looking boys, in audience view, be all over her due to her terrible, sad fate, and have villains such as Saix, be complete jerk asses. It's like everyone was being completely mean to her, poor tool that she is, or didn't care, and keeps going, and going about how used she is. Just be sympathetic and pitiful. The people who escape the actual not caring are, of course, the main characters and the pretty boys.

Saying Xion lacks flaws kind of requires you to ignore most of the game's conflict. She's got a fair amount of selfishness to her (which is only natural considering that basically everyone in this series is motivated by personal interests), even if she's indecisive about actually acting on it. She wants to be with her friends, even if she knows that it's wrong for her to want it, and she'd feel guilty if she went back to them - so, she avoids them, which not only causes them pain, but doesn't do Sora and Riku any good, either. When Axel drags her back the first time, she seizes the opportunity to stay with her friends without any hesitation, and seems grateful that she had that chance. She does end up doing the right thing in the end, but by that point, not doing so would hurt her just as badly as it would hurt everyone else (because, really, any decent person would give their selfish interests up when it feels wrong and requires the death of one of the friends they want to be with).

And Axel calls her out on it (several times, even), so it's not like the game doesn't acknowledge it.

As for the rest... Saix being a jerk is completely in-character for him, Riku felt sorry for Xion but was more focused on convincing her to go back to Sora, and Demyx is a fan-favorite who still couldn't care less about her.

[Smile]

Ikkin. Despite past disagreements and run-ins between us... I can say with all my heart - I love you T_T

In KH2, we only ever saw the real Roxas in a few scenes which showed him at his worst. If all we ever saw of Sora was, say, his reaction to Larxene threatening to smash Namine's charm and him ditching Donald and Goofy because they started questioning his devotion to Namine, you'd have no clue he was a cute kid, either. =P

True that. KH2 Roxas gave us so little to really judge him by, and when they said they gave him a "new personality", no one stopped to think that maybe, much like all the virtual TLTW, it had basis in the "old Roxas" as well. The snappy, bitchy, "Dark" Roxas is the result of the year he's been through in the Organization, not the general rule. He is, when all is said and done, Sora and Ven. Sora as well is capable of being snappy and angry - but that doesn't mean it's everything he has to him.

He's a blank slate that got filled in by memories of Sora and the part of Axel that was nostalgic for his childhood - what reason would he have to act that way?
[...] was never overly active in patching things up with his friends[...]

Part of why, as much as I dislike it, I can't really at the end hold it against Roxas's character his view about friendship - he didn't know better, as much as I'd have liked him to.

and I think that making him colder probably would have just reduced his emotional range.

I agree. Roxas in KH2 was kind of emoish to me :\ I liked him a lot when he was the cute kid and do see where he's coming from as far as being pissy and bratty at the end goes. He's Sora's Nobody, and like Xigbar said and Axel attested to more than enough - what Nobodies had as humans never goes away - not even without their Memories, as an imprint is left behind.

(As for kids not relating to emotionless punks... are you serious? Kids themselves love that kind of stuff- it's their parents who aren't so thrilled with it.)

Also keep in mind the whole "Roxas "possibly" has a Heart" issue. Unlike the other org members that don't have that going for them, Roxas shouldn't be an emotionless punk. Even his rage issues came from immense hurt and frustration - both things that would've been impossible to truly pull off without a Heart. So whether or not he has a Heart - the fact remains they weren't trying to keep him as a cold, emotionless brat. They were aiming at the opposite. And that much is visible even in KH2 Roxas.

I'm not really sure what you were expecting. Even if they weren't worried about traumatizing the kiddies, I don't see why the Org should have been all that much nastier when their only goal is to get their hearts back. I see a lot of fanfic where they kill people or set Heartless on them just to see what it looks like when a heart is lost... but they wouldn't really gain all too much from that, so why would Squenix want the story to go there?

Gotta agree with you there. They're very mission oriented. That means though that even if it includes happy faces and grins, they'd do that. Notice how Saix is practically chasing after Roxas and trying to please him when Xion starts "disfunctioning" - Saix, not just any other member. The guy who later tried pounding Roxas to the ground. They'd send Heartless after people to turn them into Heartless, not see what it looks like.
They're Nobodies. They're beyond caring about that sort of thing and that's something the fandom is all but incapable of realizing at times, it seems.

Not to mention, they don't have hearts, so they react solely based on how they remember their Other acting. That's not really conducive to character development, I'd imagine.

100% agreement there and more. The only way they could "develop" the org would be by introducing their Somebodies, but beyond the fandom value - what true worth would it have to the game? The Apprentices' Somebodies weren't introduced for the lulz - they're crucial to Xehanort and AtW's plot, and now - BBS. Axel does have popularity going for him, yes, but we know that once the chance presents itself, he'll be shoved into importance as well so he's in the clear too.
But the rest of the Organization doesn't have that going for them. They're Nobodies. They can't suddenly have a "change of Heart" unless something drastic happens like whatever happened to Axel in Castle Oblivion. If they change, I can imagine them changing for the worst as their Memories "fade" or something along those lines, not have them be ridiculously developed characters.

[*TwilightNight*]

Not to mention, they don't have hearts, so they react solely based on how they remember their Other acting. That's not really conducive to character development, I'd imagine.

Something to think about: if Axel had ended his role in CoM (guess why Re: CoM isn't stated here) where he was a complete asshole and just as bad as the members there, was not in KH2, nor received relatable development, or was ever planned to make it out (not to mention he was never confirmed to be Roxas's BFF before bias stepped in)...

Wouldn't you say he wasn't conductive to character development either? :x

Yet, once he did, and effort was put in...

I mean, it doesn't have to be this big change, and then suddenly have them all hug puppies and kitties (like what happened to Axel in the long run). Just, you know, give something called depth to otherwise one-dimensional stereotypes. Half of the ice cream scenes could have been put to better use. It's funny that in 358/2 Days, the only other members who got some attention and more screen time turned out to be interesting. Like, Saix (and how he changed from his past self), for one, and even Xigbar. Proof that if given something, thirteen characters can become quite deep ones. Or at least make you wonder about them. And would certainly put in that "gray" of the Organization that for some reason KH2 was suppose to show. And some of the Secret Reports themselves were quite nice to read, minus Demyx's (>.>). Which is what I find sad: lol, let's all just cover the most thoughtful things on the members' minds in limited diaries you get after the game and in writing.

The one who even got close (and I do mean "close", not all) to going two-dimensional (not three) was Larxene, because it's been shown that while rough on the edges still, she can show some sort of twisted expressions of kindness. Novel saying she doesn't like having a Heart because it's painful? Exactly the kind of depth you'd want. Why? It makes you question why she thinks that and lets your imagination soar. Or get you curious. Complimenting Roxas on his progression and giving him a Potion? To heal himself with?

Well, shat.

Hell, Marluxia, instead of getting a boner over Roxas's Keyblade, as if that's enough to cover everything he did later, could have been shown sharing his ideas, interactions with Larxene (and how they even partnered up in the first place, and had trust, if they had it at all. Point to take in exactly: WE DON'T KNOW. Why? Well, that's obvious), his plotting, and more revelations as to why. If it wasn't for the Secret Reports, or we didn't read Ultimania, we would have never known he was aware of the Replica Plan. Xemnas himself is the most selfish, bastard seen, no Heart, no nothing. And, we get a full game on how he became that way. That's all it takes for the others (except not a full game on it with each, dur).

God, even a suckish fanfic writer could have done better.

Actually, they do.

[Goldpanner]

In KH2, we only ever saw the real Roxas in a few scenes which showed him at his worst.

As it turned out, in any case.

Roxas had no context under which to want anything, either, and single-minded determination doesn't really make much sense for a character like that.

If that were true, he should have been a cold-blooded killing machine that slowly learned to copy the reactions of others. And he would never have cared about making friends or any of that crap. Bringing in the influence of Sora's memories and Axel's childhood nostalgia is irrelevant to this argument because they are contained in Days.

I like this: Imaginary Friends, a Kingdom Hearts fanfic - FanFiction.Net

And besides, it's possible that he has a heart because of Ven or whatever crap is going to be unveiled in BbS. If so, it makes sense that he would know how to want.

(As for kids not relating to emotionless punks... are you serious? Kids themselves love that kind of stuff- it's their parents who aren't so thrilled with it.)

I think you and I have different images of 'emotionless punks'. I mean. they love the punk part, but the emotionless blank slate part doesn't work so well with kids. They get bored. They like their Narutos, Ash Ketchums and Soras, dorky punks, to be their protagonists. The emotionless ones work better in rival or antagonist roles in kids games, cause they don't take up eough screentime to get boring.

...I'm not so sure that being a seasoned shipper is the best credential there, since so much of shipping is the ability to pull all the strands of relationship potential (intentional or not) together into one big shippy thread.

...That was exactly the point I was trying to make. I was saying that as an warning as to why I possibly interpreted more Roku/Xion things than Smile did. I never said it was a good thing.

Then again, to me, the fact that RokuShi would essentially be selfcest overrides all romantic hinting less subtle than a Keyblade to the face. =P

Different strokes for different folks~

I'm not really sure what you were expecting. Even if they weren't worried about traumatizing the kiddies, I don't see why the Org should have been all that much nastier when their only goal is to get their hearts back.

...I was expecting fleshing out. And what do you mean 'nastier'? I never said that they should have been any meaner, I just said that their villain-ness was probably what made the writers reluctant to make them the real main characters.

Riku felt sorry for Xion but was more focused on convincing her to go back to Sora

Then what was Riku's 'take the time to think about what's right for you and your friends' line about? If he was really focused on convincing her, he wouldn't have encouraged her and comforted her like that; in fact, he could have knocked her out and taken her back against her will. It's not like he never did that. I'll tell you what it was about: 'uwaa Riku totally would hold me in his aaaaarms~'

beyond the fandom value - what true worth would it have to the game?

.....................................What true worth did Xion have, to anything? At least the org would have had fandom value.

The Apprentices' Somebodies weren't introduced for the lulz - they're crucial to Xehanort and AtW's plot, and now - BBS. Axel does have popularity going for him, yes, but we know that once the chance presents itself, he'll be shoved into importance as well so he's in the clear too.
But the rest of the Organization doesn't have that going for them. They're Nobodies. They can't suddenly have a "change of Heart" unless something drastic happens like whatever happened to Axel in Castle Oblivion.

Do you see what you're saying here? The rest of the org aren't crucial to anything so they couldn't have been crucial to anything--what? Why couldn't Luxord and Demyx have been crucial to something in Days? Xion was crucial to everything, and she was pulled out of the blue! Think about it. Before you knew anything about the game, you knew just as much about how Luxord spent that year as you did Xion.

Yet, once he did, and effort was put in...

TN ♥ you get it tooooo~

[Smile]

.....................................What true worth did Xion have, to anything? At least the org would have had fandom value.

I'm a broken record about that but I'll say it again - once the series ends and Xion gave us nothing more, then you can say that. But my views in the matter are well known. I believe she's tied to a lot more than what was bluntly said in the game.

Do you see what you're saying here? The rest of the org aren't crucial to anything so they couldn't have been crucial to anything--what?

Exactly. They were created from the get go not to serve too much of a purpose, so to me, it's pointless expecting them to suddenly gain importance. They're not crucial - hence they're not crucial, as ridiculous as it sounds.

Think about it. Before you knew anything about the game, you knew just as much about how Luxord spent that year as you did Xion.

I actually knew more about it than about Xion before I knew the game, glimpsing on KH2 and CoM and all. But that's part of why I didn't expect too much of the Org - based on what I saw before.

And here's another thing to consider, which you'll probably crank up to bad writing but that's how it is -
Save for Roxas, no other member related to Sora's story. Which is you know, what KH is all about. So seeing how they have to sacrifice everything on the alter of SoKai (which is where I also agree bad writing is here) there had to have been a Kairi to the Sora that is Roxas that ended up being more Sora than him because unlike Roxas, she actually got Sora's Memories.
Only I don't see it as bad writing as going by the intention behind the storytelling, I don't go BAAAAW over no Organization attention.
Since you know, no pants, no Sora relations, no service.

[gelandporn]

Exactly. They were created from the get go not to serve too much of a purpose, so to me, it's pointless expecting them to suddenly gain importance.

You're using a double standard here.
Xion's purpose was to advance the plot of Days, and it has been isolated to Days, so it's pointless to expect her to suddenly gain future importance.
See what I did there?

They're not crucial - hence they're not crucial, as ridiculous as it sounds.

It's not just ridiculous, it's circuitous, fallacious logic.
The fact that they aren't crucial isn't what made them non-crucial, the cause can't be the effect, it was the choice of the writer's to make them so. Just as easily, any one of them could have been crucial.

[Smile]

The thing is, their importance would've been as much out of the blue as Xion's was. Nothing in KH2 even hinted Luxord or Demyx had any sort of significance inside the Org or beyond it. Saix had going for him hintings about something special that went on between him and Axel so they used that to further develop the both of them. However, again - that was something hinted towards in KH2. And seeing how for Xaldin they didn't hint anything BEYOND the Beast's Castle, that's what it amounted up to in Days.

Also, Demyx and Luxord's Somebodies might end up being important in the future, who knows.
Just as Xion might end up being tied to Riku's wielding as can arguably be hinted in the games. See what I did there? Took things that needed you to actually think about them beyond simply shrugging and going "oh well, Sora clone, explained in full, carrying on" - because if only for Snarl of Memories, no, Xion wasn't fully explained. Hence she's not as isolated as one might think, at least not until a final mix that does explain her in full comes along.

[Key of Valor]

because if only for Snarl of Memories, no, Xion wasn't fully explained. Hence she's not as isolated as one might think, at least not until a final mix that does explain her in full comes along.

Everything about Xion was connected to other characters, primarily relating to Sora and Roxas. If she turned into Ven, one could claim that was because of her connection to Sora and Roxas. If she was part of some crazy dream in Snarl of Memories, one could claim that was because of her connection to Sora and Roxas.

Xion's connections to anywhere in the story exist through other characters. Therefore Xion's mysteries are only related to the mysteries of these characters, and therefore series can explain these mysteries through these characters without incorporating Xion at all.

That's not to say that it isn't possible for Xion to be featured or referenced in future installments, but she doesn't appear to be necessary one bit.