Is Org XIII really THAT bad?

[ColdRoxas]

Yeah, SE should of put some more emphasis on the "Evil" category in Org XIII, and how bad it would be if Sora and Co. didn't stop them. Who knows what Xemnas would've done after he gained immense power from Kingdom Hearts.

[Naximi]

They just wanted to be whole and tried to create a Kingdom Hearts. All they had to do was create some heartless and kill some people and create dark emotions in others' hearts. They might have known it was bad, but they didn't feel it was bad. So I see them as accidental bad guys.

[Tatsu]

Most except Demyx and Luxord were devious. Im pretty sure Roxas was going to kill them all even if he wasnt in Sora. Saix and Xemnas were definitely the top picks on his list.

[Ikkin]

Originally Posted by fantasy08

I'm still not following you. By your logic the whole organization shouldn't be blamed at all for their actions either.However we both know that's absurd right? Screwed morality or not Axel, as well as the rest of the organization, remembers what it was like to be human. So they definitely knew right from wrong. I mean that's like saying someone with a split personality,a good side and a bad side,shouldn't be held responsibility for what the bad side did. The hypocrisy in your logic.. I just... It's like your saying since it's Axel, everybody's favorite flame-haired pedo, that his horrible deeds are excused because he's a nobody, but the organization, who are in the same nobody boat as him, get painted THE EVIL. Yea.. Not following.

One more thing it's said that Axel was beginning to feel like a human by being with Roxas before he went to castle Oblivion and then by Sora while he was there. Then that means when Axel was using everybody in the castle as his own personal playthings, killing his own comrades sadistically, making bets on which one would die next with Zexion etc he had more of a conscience then anybody in the organization. Think about that.

I think you might have missed my point.

Organization members remember what it's like to be human. Therefore, they can be held as responsible as a human would when dealing with ordinary people because, lack of emotions or not, they still have the intellectual capacity to understand why it's wrong and they shouldn't be doing it.

However, none of them ever had any experience with Nobodies until they were turned into Nobodies themselves. Therefore, they never would have had the opportunity to develop any ideas about what's "right" or "wrong" to do to a Nobody until it was effectively too late.

If Axel had done the same thing to a real human that he did to Vexen, he'd definitely be evil. But, with Vexen himself, it's more hazy - after all, from what Axel's been told, Vexen is only "pretending" that he's petrified of dying.

Axel's evil actions are, almost in their entirety, done towards other Nobodies. Since even Sora doesn't think much about killing Nobodies until Axel dies - he's picking fights with them in KH2 before he even sees them do anything - I think there's a limit on how much Axel's actions reflect on his actual character.

Er... If we didn't apply real life equivalency to the organization then why are we having this conversation? I mean in real life we would peg the organization as a pack of horrible people, and would demand justice for what they did. It's our real life sense of morality that causes us to even say that about them. Yet you say we shouldn't use real life to judge them? It just seems like you're trying to erase Axel's misdeeds because he's a bishie as well as friends with Roxas. Basically draco and leather pantsing him.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was, you can't apply morality intended to deal with actions taken towards real people to actions taken towards Nobodies, because Nobodies differ in some significant ways.

And I think that would be true if they were placed into reality. We'd judge them as horrible people because of their actions towards real people, and demand justice for that. There's not much incentive to demand justice for what they did to each other.

As for the Draco in Leather Pants claim - Axel was created with Leather Pants. He's supposed to be sympathetic, and the entire point of his character is lost if he's not. I like him just the way he is, misdeeds and all. I just don't think they're as unforgivable as you seem to think they are.

My God. Please tell me what you do consider evil. I mean in your book what does someone have to do to finally have that label slapped on them.

I 'm so glad you brought Riku up.In my book Kh1 Riku was definitely evil. He destroyed his home. A whole island got wiped out, and the heartless had them a fine dinner I'm sure with the people of that that island. Another consequence is one of his best friend's heart got taken and the other barely escaped to another world with his life. He deliberately gave up to the darkness. He deliberately helped Maleficent. He deliberately let Xehnaort's heartless take over his body. He tried to kill his best friend on more than one occasion. He deliberately kept Kairi from Sora. He was horrible to Beast. He took Sora's keyblade and his friends to the point that we learned from Days, through Roxas, Sora cried etc.

Evil is an absolute term that should not, under normal circumstances, be applied to people, because they're too complicated for that. It's a term that's much more fair to apply to actions, because they're relatively simple.

All you proved in your Riku example is that Riku did evil things. This does not make Riku an evil person, because there has always been more to Riku than that.

Do you understand what I mean now?

Considering the disgusted face Sora made when Axel did that to Vexen I'm pretty sure it wasn't for Sora's benefit, but for his. Axel enjoyed what he did to Vexen and Zexion if the sadistic smile on his face didn't clue you in.

By "Sora's benefit" I didn't mean "to make Sora happy" or anything like that. -_- What I meant was, Axel was putting on an act to draw out a reaction from Sora. From the Secret Reports, it seems that Axel would have preferred if he didn't have to kill Vexen, after all.

Hmm the report was really blatant without any room for interpretation about the Riku replica. He knew it was it's on person. Like I said he didn't care until he made friends with one, and then it was like Opps. Maybe I can see that because I'm not wearing Axel is a good boy fan goggles.

He said "Riku-Replica was a tool." That doesn't sound like he thought of it as a person.

Never said Axel 's friendship overall with Roxas wasn't real. Never even implied it. What I'm saying is that there was a undercurrent of obsession on Axel's part of that friendship. Roxas made him feel like he had a heart, something that a nobody longs to have, so he kept that drug near him even if it meant being selfish and lying and keeping a human being from waking.

You're still turning their friendship into something destructive and wrong, though. The very existence of 358/2 Days is proof that Axel is supposed to be interpreted more charitably.

Axel is, quite simply, the Nobody counterpart of KH2 Riku - they both represent the darker aspects of acting to protect something that one cannot bear losing, and they do a lot of the same things for the same reason. But that parallel is completely destroyed if you insist that Axel is acting on an ulterior motive.

Walking unknowingly to his doom? So rejoining his other, being human, being whole, is dooming him is it? I could have sworn that is what all nobodies wanted,and Roxas got that. While I feel for Roxas since he wanted so bad to be his on person the fact of the matter is he isn't and never was. He belongs with Sora. The human.

You don't get to do this.

You don't get to say, on one hand, that Axel is bad for trying to take Roxas back against his will, and then say on the other that it's perfectly okay to force Roxas back into Sora against his will.

The implications of what you're saying here are much larger than you seem to think. You're basically saying that Nobodies have no right to exist. Which inevitably leads to the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with killing them, since that means their Others can come back.

Well, look at that. Axel was actually doing Vexen and Zexion a favor. -_-

Considering he doesn't even remember wanting to fight Xenmas. Then No. You're just trying to give more and more excuses to Axel.

Well, I'd imagine Axel thought they'd fix Roxas if he brought him back. But, yeah, using potential futures as justification doesn't do much good.

Then again, I don't need it. Roxas had everything he cared about replaced with lies, and was basically brainwashed into defending those lies. I really don't see how you can blame Axel for wanting to reverse that.

He apologizes on his death bed, and to me he wasn't apologizing for kidnapping Kairi for his own plans, but more like he was apologizing for letting Saix take her. Him wanting to turn Sora into a heartless to get Roxas back is not out of character at all. He was obsessed with him. Getting him back by any means necessary is definitely in Axel's character.

I wouldn't have used it as part of my argument if that was all it was. -_-

Axel started to apologize the first time at the Battle of Hollow Bastion, at which point he most certainly wasn't dying - and at which point he had nothing to gain by telling Sora he was sorry about Kairi.

And it's not so much that Axel isn't the type to get Roxas back by all means necessary - it's more that, once Roxas returns to Sora, Axel doesn't act like someone who's obsessed with getting Roxas back at all costs. Obsession is driven and impassioned, but, apart from the prologue, Axel is not. He's unsure of what to do and lacks any real sense of direction, to the point where he winds up in The World That Never Was despite being on the run from the Organization. The best illustration of that, of course, is this scene - "[places to belong] don't exist to guys like us."

Axel's final stand in Betwixt and Between isn't some random switch to the good side (as it would have to be, if Axel was intending to turn Sora into a Heartless the rest of the game). It's a last-ditch effort to see a friend one last time by a man who's already lost everything else. Axel never could have reached such a state so quickly if he'd been focused obsessively on a goal up until that point.

I don't recall considering any of the organization to be on par, that includes Axel, with Xenmas's evil. Wanting their hearts back but being selfish and cruel to get them vs wanting to take over the universe one heart at a time. It seems like a no brainier who is truly evil here. What I'm saying here is I just wish the draco and leather pantsing of Axel would stop. Him finally doing some good at the end of his life does not excuse the cruel/selfish things he did before then to his friends and his comrades. I mean every-time I see a is the organization good/bad topic, be it here or any other Kh fan-site, Roxas,Namine,and now Xion, and Axel are always on the good side,and I'm always like w.t.f is Axel doing there? He should be right over there with the rest of the org.

Well, the Xemnas bit is fair.

But I don't see why it'd be anywhere near unusual that Axel would end up over on the side where all his friends are. He's likable, has a ton of character development, and clearly seems to have gained something that the rest of the Organization lacked. Unlike the other members, it's impossible to reduce him to simple absolutes without losing what makes him Axel.

I'm willing to bet that if any of the members weren't under Xenmas thumb, and his nonsense, that neither of them would be as bad as they are.

Heh, this is true. Bad leaders can get even good people to do terrible things. Adding Nobodies to the mix just makes it even worse.

[Kiwise]

Originally Posted by Ikkin

Xaldin was trying to turn Beast into a Heartless, but didn't succeed (obviously). That could have been something Xaldin decided to do for himself, though, considering the fact that Roxas got sent after him when he didn't RTC on time.

Xigbar turned a dragon from The Land of Dragons into a Heartless, so that Sora would have to fight it. Another Organization member (identity unknown) intended to turn Jafar into a Heartless for the same purpose, but never seemed to have actually gotten around to Heartlessifying him before Sora took him out.

Examples do help, thanks.

Xigbar, Zexion, Lexaeus, and Vexen are actually some of the easiest to classify as evil, since they were involved in Xehanort's terrible experiments even before they lost their hearts. The first six had definitely turned people into Heartless intentionally, out of intellectual curiosity.

So says DiZ. DiZ is not exactly the most trustworthy in this case.

Zexion's list of crimes includes attempting to drive Riku to despair to make him easier to kill, which is pretty heinous.

Wasn't aware of that. Do you have a quote from the game?

Vexen's got some extra acts of evil, too, since he's the one who remains the most involved in direct experimentation (with dissection being mentioned as one of the things he likes doing). Just think for a moment about what it would take to dissect a Heartless or Nobody without it fading away. >_>

Got me there. I'm not convinced with Xigbar or Lexaeus, though.

[fantasy08]

I think you might have missed my point.Organization members remember what it's like to be human. Therefore, they can be held as responsible as a human would when dealing with ordinary people because, lack of emotions or not, they still have the intellectual capacity to understand why it's wrong and they shouldn't be doing it.However, none of them ever had any experience with Nobodies until they were turned into Nobodies themselves. Therefore, they never would have had the opportunity to develop any ideas about what's "right" or "wrong" to do to a Nobody until it was effectively too late.If Axel had done the same thing to a real human that he did to Vexen, he'd definitely be evil. But, with Vexen himself, it's more hazy - after all, from what Axel's been told, Vexen is only "pretending" that he's petrified of dying.Axel's evil actions are, almost in their entirety, done towards other Nobodies. Since even Sora doesn't think much about killing Nobodies until Axel dies - he's picking fights with them in KH2 before he even sees them do anything - I think there's a limit on how much Axel's actions reflect on his actual character.

No, I don't think I did. You said the same thing I posted. Nobodies remember what it's like to be human. Therefore their basic concept of what is right and wrong is still there. They simply don't care since they don't have hearts. This does not excuse them from what they did. Just gives a reason for it. You seem to agree with me on that,but are still talking about Axel like this doesn't apply to him.You are still making excuses for him, but not the rest of the organization. It's hypocrisy, and even more damning when there's the fact that only Axel had a conscience, his humanity, when going to castle oblivion and even once inside.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was, you can't apply morality intended to deal with actions taken towards real people to actions taken towards Nobodies, because Nobodies differ in some significant ways.

He was using Sora as well. Who I do believe is human. Not to mention Kairi in Kh2. As for everybody else that he used and was selfish towards it's okay because their nobodies? I see. So the humanizing of Axel should stop then since he's just a nobody.

As for the Draco in Leather Pants claim - Axel was created with Leather Pants. He's supposed to be sympathetic, and the entire point of his character is lost if he's not. I like him just the way he is, misdeeds and all. I just don't think they're as unforgivable as you seem to think they are.

The entire organization gets leather pants like crazy even to the point that a lot of crazy people seem to think Sora is evil for taking them out. The only ones who truly deserve sympathy are Roxas,Xion, and Namine because they were being used, lied to, and manipulated even by Axel. Axel has known full well that he knows what he does is wrong, and still he did it. The others had no clue but when they did they left and tried to rectify.I see Axel like this. Mostly everything that happened to him he caused on himself and most, if not all, could have been avoided. I saw his death as karma coming for repayment.

Even if a person gets a second chance to do right that doesn't excuse the horrible things they did in the past,but that's what a majority of his fans seem to think. Give a guy bishie status, and a homoerotic relationship with a 15 year old boy( fan logic), and the fans go wild and forget everything. If you have ever heard of Final Fantasy I got one name to describe when draco and leather pantsing gets out of hand. Selphiroth.

Evil is an absolute term that should not, under normal circumstances, be applied to people, because they're too complicated for that. It's a term that's much more fair to apply to actions, because they're relatively simple.All you proved in your Riku example is that Riku did evil things. This does not make Riku an evil person, because there has always been more to Riku than that.Do you understand what I mean now?

Hmm,If someone murders,torture, and rapes they are not an evil person. They just did evil things. Despite that the person they murdered would still be dead, the person they raped and tortured would still be mentally scarred for the rest of their life, but it's okay because the murderer etc repented? The someone is only a evil person if they murder etc and enjoy it. Is that what you're saying?

Riku can destroy his whole world, try to kill his best-friend etc. Axel can kill sadistically his own comrades, oh I forgot you don't consider nobodies human-like if Axel does it, use children and other sentient beings for his own gains, and be extremely selfish. However, since they felt sorry in the end it's okay.

So basically no one but the devil himself would be evil to you? What about Hitler? Is he an evil person? Or was he just a good person who did evil things?

Good people do not deliberately do bad/heinous things. That's what makes them good in the first place. A good person wouldn't do something so deliberately evil and so genuinely selfish to even warrant repentance.That's why I don't see Riku or Axel as good people. They are anti-heros/poisonous friends.

By "Sora's benefit" I didn't mean "to make Sora happy" or anything like that. -_- What I meant was, Axel was putting on an act to draw out a reaction from Sora. From the Secret Reports, it seems that Axel would have preferred if he didn't have to kill Vexen, after all.

You say that like Axel was generally feeling remorse for what he did to Vexen. Which is ridiculous. He saw Vexen/ Zexion as more in the vain of (intentional) collateral damage. That is all.

He said "Riku-Replica was a tool." That doesn't sound like he thought of it as a person.

The day 195 report says explicitly that he indeed knew it had gained a sense of self. Basically he knew it was it's own person. He used it as a tool knowing that. It was only when he actually befriended a replica that he thought maybe using another sentient being like trash wasn't the right thing to do.

You're still turning their friendship into something destructive and wrong, though. The very existence of 358/2 Days is proof that Axel is supposed to be interpreted more charitably.Axel is, quite simply, the Nobody counterpart of KH2 Riku - they both represent the darker aspects of acting to protect something that one cannot bear losing, and they do a lot of the same things for the same reason. But that parallel is completely destroyed if you insist that Axel is acting on an ulterior motive.

Axel was a liar. Axel was selfish. He did have an ulterior motive for keeping Roxas. He cared about roxas true. I don't doubt that, but the underlying motive under that friendship was feeling like he had a heart, and he felt that because of Roxas. His drug to humanity was leaving, and Axel couldn't have that. So he would do anything to stop him and damn the consequences.

You don't get to do this.You don't get to say, on one hand, that Axel is bad for trying to take Roxas back against his will, and then say on the other that it's perfectly okay to force Roxas back into Sora against his will.The implications of what you're saying here are much larger than you seem to think. You're basically saying that Nobodies have no right to exist. Which inevitably leads to the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with killing them, since that means their Others can come back.Well, look at that. Axel was actually doing Vexen and Zexion a favor. -_-

Truthfully Roxas and Namine don't have a right to exist.More so then any of the other nobodies. For the simple fact that their Others are still walking around, and thus they are keeping their real selves from being complete. They are entirely different from the rest of the organization. The rest of them were their original selves just without hearts. The nobody process got screwed badly when Namine and Roxas were born. In truth Sora and Kairi were supposed to disappear when their hearts left their bodies, and be reborn as the beings Roxas and Namine. It didn't go like that so basically you have two Sora's and two Kairi's walking around. Sora would have never woken up without Roxas and Kairi would never be a whole without Namine. So of course I side with the humans on this. I do sympathize with Roxas since he wanted to exist as himself,and it was wrong of Diz and Riku to kidnap him and mess with his memories. However, they didn't force him into Sora. He went, if resignedly, into Sora himself. Do you remember the wake up sora he said after the looks like my summer vacation is over. He was like Xion. They both wanted to be their own people, but gave up themselves for the greater good.

Axel killing Vexen and Zexion is not the problem. It's the way he did it that is. It wasn't in self-defense at all. They were begging for their lives while he smiled as he killed them horribly. If he had fought them like he did Marluxia, as equals, then I wouldn't have batted an eye because it would have been a fair fight. With Vexen and Zexion that was not the case.

Then again, I don't need it. Roxas had everything he cared about replaced with lies, and was basically brainwashed into defending those lies. I really don't see how you can blame Axel for wanting to reverse that.

Axel was not trying to reverse that out of pity that his best friend was in a fake town with fake memories. He was doing it to drag him back to the organization, and to have his feel like a heart drug back with him. Nevermind that Sora would stay sleep forever if this had happened.

Axel started to apologize the first time at the Battle of Hollow Bastion, at which point he most certainly wasn't dying - and at which point he had nothing to gain by telling Sora he was sorry about Kairi.

Since you like the novels then in them Saix took Kairi away from Axel right after they left Twilight Town. So he could have been apologizing for that at Hollow Bastion then reiterated it fully in Betwixt and Between. That is not a stretch because Kairi was indeed not with him at HB.

He's likable, has a ton of character development, and clearly seems to have gained something that the rest of the Organization lacked. Unlike the other members, it's impossible to reduce him to simple absolutes without losing what makes him Axel.

That's another thing that bothers me about Axel. For example Xigbar and Xenmas are confirmed to be important to birth by sleep. Xenmas more so then anybody. Yet their character development is really, really, pathetic compared to Axel who is not important to the overall KH mythos. It's favoritism and whoring and thus bad story-telling.

However, if Axel is who I think he is,points to sig, then the constant whoring for three games would be justified.If not then its again bad storytelling. Putting favoritism ahead of a coherent plot is never a good thing.Also if the other members had even a bit near the character development of Axel then they to would be seen in a shade of gray more easily as well,but because of the Axel whoring that's impossible. Thus not fair to really blame them for their lack of sympathetic character development. Blame Nomura.

[Ikkin]

Originally Posted by fantasy08

No, I don't think I did. You said the same thing I posted. Nobodies remember what it's like to be human. Therefore their basic concept of what is right and wrong is still there. They simply don't care since they don't have hearts. This does not excuse them from what they did. Just gives a reason for it. You seem to agree with me on that,but are still talking about Axel like this doesn't apply to him.You are still making excuses for him, but not the rest of the organization. It's hypocrisy, and even more damning when there's the fact that only Axel had a conscience, his humanity, when going to castle oblivion and even once inside.

You're still missing the point.

No one - including ordinary, complete people like Sora and Yen Sid - places much moral worth on Nobody life, until they're given a good reason to do so.

I'm not excusing Axel for something I wouldn't excuse anyone else for. I'm excusing Axel for something that a lot of human characters have already been excused for.

Axel's willing to be a lot more blatant about his disrespect for Nobody life, of course, but that's where the lack of heart comes in - he lacks a sense of revulsion for the imagery itself that would cause a normal person to avoid killing Nobodies like that.

He was using Sora as well. Who I do believe is human. Not to mention Kairi in Kh2. As for everybody else that he used and was selfish towards it's okay because their nobodies? I see. So the humanizing of Axel should stop then since he's just a nobody.

Well, Axel's use of Sora mostly involved letting him free so he could do what he'd normally do anyway. Same with his use of Namine.

Kidnapping Kairi can't really be defended, though, I agree.

As for the Nobodies, you're missing the point yet again. It's not about whether it actually is okay to treat Nobodies badly. It's about whether the characters have any reason to think otherwise - lack of knowledge seems to me to be a mitigating factor as long as one would have acted differently if they had that knowledge.

The entire organization gets leather pants like crazy even to the point that a lot of crazy people seem to think Sora is evil for taking them out. The only ones who truly deserve sympathy are Roxas,Xion, and Namine because they were being used, lied to, and manipulated even by Axel. Axel has known full well that he knows what he does is wrong, and still he did it. The others had no clue but when they did they left and tried to rectify.I see Axel like this. Mostly everything that happened to him he caused on himself, and all could have been avoided. I saw his death as karma coming for repayment.

So you're basically admitting that you're ignoring Axel's entire portrayal by the series because you don't like him?

Think what you want about Axel's actions in Castle Oblivion - evil actions, evil person, whatever. Once you start saying that Axel's fate is karmic retribution, you deny everything that the character is and do a good deal of harm to every theme and parallel that he's involved in.

Do you honestly think that 358/2 Days is supposed to be "the story of two best friends and that jerk who hangs around with them and ruins everything?" Seriously?

Hmm,If someone murders,torture, and rapes they are not an evil person. They just did evil things. Despite that the person they murdered would still be dead, the person they raped and tortured would still be mentally scarred for the rest of their life, but it's okay because the murderer etc repented? The someone is only a evil person if they murder etc and enjoy it. Is that what you're saying?

I thought I already explained this.

To me, the word "evil" is something that defines the essence of whatever it's attached to. Using it to describe a person is equivalent to saying, "evil is so important to his character that he would not be recognizable without it."

Sadists are probably one of the few types of people who can be described in that way.

Of course, this doesn't mean that I don't think people should be judged for evil deeds even if they're not definitionally evil. Which I think might be, at least in part, where the misunderstanding is coming from.

Riku can destroy his whole world, try to kill his best-friend etc. Axel can kill sadistically his own comrades, oh I forgot you don't consider nobodies human-like if Axel does it, use children and other sentient beings for his own gains, and be extremely selfish. However, since they felt sorry in the end it's okay.

No, that's not it.

The point is, Axel and Riku are both so much more than their evil actions that they ought to be described in more nuanced terms.

Good people do not deliberately do bad/heinous things. That's what makes them good in the first place. A good person wouldn't do something so deliberately evil and so genuinely selfish to even warrant repentance.That's why I don't see Riku or Axel as good people. They are anti-heros.

Here's a secret - I see them as anti-heroes too. That's the thing that bugs me, actually. You're not treating them like anti-heroes. You're treating them like villains.

You say that like Axel was generally feeling remorse for what he did to Vexen which is ridiculous. He saw Vexen as collateral damage that is all.

That's not what I meant. All I meant was, Axel's real reaction is closer to "oh well" than "mwahaha."

The day 195 report says explicitly that he indeed knew it had gained a sense of self. Basically he knew it was it's own person. He used it as a tool knowing that. It was only when he actually befriended a replica that he thought maybe using another sentient being like trash wasn't the right thing to do.

The higher Nobodies had a sense of self, too, yet no one valued their lives all too highly, either.

And, really, if Replicas existed in the real world, do you really think that the first response would be anything other than "use them to do the things real people don't want to?"

Axel was a liar. He was selfish. He did have an ulterior motive for keeping Roxas. He cared about roxas true. I don't doubt that, but the underlying motive under that friendship was feeling like he had a heart, and he felt that because of Roxas. His drug to humanity was leaving, and Axel couldn't have that. So he would do anything to stop him and damn the consequences.

I don't think what you're saying is compatible with Axel being friends with Roxas or the feeling that the story is trying to portray.

Axel is much more intent on getting Roxas to want to come back than getting Roxas to come back in general, I think. When Axel left in the first place, Axel let him go without a fight. He never really took any cheap shots (despite knowing Roxas could outpower him), wasted a lot of time trying to get Roxas to remember, and waffled around about whether he actually could bring Roxas in by force until Roxas was twenty feet from disappearing.

If he was as driven by the need for feelings as you think, he'd never be anywhere near as inconsistent as he is.

No. Roxas and Namine are entirely different from the rest of the organization. The rest of them were their original selves just without hearts. The nobody process got screwed badly when Namine and Roxas were born. In truth Sora and Kairi were supposed to disappear when their hearts left their bodies, and be reborn as the beings Roxas and Namine. It didn't go like that so basically you have two Sora's and two Kairi's walking around. Sora would have never woken up without Roxas and Kairi would never be a whole without Namine. So of course I side with the humans on this. I sympathize with Roxas since he wanted to exist as himself,and it was wrong of Diz and Riku to kidnap him and mess with his memories. However, they didn't force him into Sora. He went, if resignedly, into Sora himself. Do you remember the wake up sora he said after the looks like my summer vacation is over. He was like Xion. They both wanted to be their own people, but gave up themselves for the greater good.

The other Nobodies are a lot closer to their original selves than Roxas and Namine are, but they can't really be the same thing since they don't have hearts. In fact, that just makes their existence even less justified - Roxas and Namine, at least, have something to lose by returning.

Saying that Roxas chose to return to Sora doesn't feel right to me, though. DiZ tricked him into opening Sora's pod by using Roxas' hatred for him and what he did. It makes much more sense to me that, after that happened, it was simply too late for Roxas to do anything - the only other option is that Roxas changed his mind completely for no reason.

Xion gave herself up for the greater good. Roxas never did. Roxas was never even allowed to understand why he would have a reason to give himself up until he'd already joined with Sora, since everyone was so intent on making his decision for him.

Axel killing Vexen and Zexion is not the problem. It's the way he did it that is. It wasn't in self-defense at all. They were begging for their lives while he smiled as he killed them horribly. If he had fought them like he did Marluxia, as equals, then I wouldn't have batted an eye because it would have been a fair fight. With Vexen and Zexion that was not the casel.

Axel is, essentially, a deep cover agent, and they tend to get some leeway in protecting their cover even when they're not dealing with beings whose right to exist is doubted by basically everyone.

Don't get me wrong, it isn't a complete justification by any means. But double agents can't always do things like forcing their enemies into fair fights. (Besides, why would that be a good thing anyway?)

Axel was not trying to reverse that out of pity that his best friend was in a fake town with fake memories. He was doing it to drag him back to the organization, and to have his feel like a heart drug back with him. Nevermind that Sora would stay sleep forever if this had happened.

So you are saying that Axel doesn't really care about Roxas after all.

Dragging Roxas back to the Organization, from Axel's point of view, is basically the only thing he can do. He can't let Roxas stay where he is, because DiZ has too much power there for him to even talk to Roxas. And as Nobodies, they have nowhere else to go - if they did leave, they'd get hunted down from two sides.

I think you're underestimating just how lacking in options Axel was at that point, so you assume that because Axel is willing to act so dramatically, he must be acting for his own gratification. But, it doesn't really fit to assume Axel's being selfish. After all, if Axel just wanted his "heart drug" fix, he could just as easily glom onto Sora.

Since you like the novels then in them Saix took Kairi away from Axel right after they left Twilight Town. So he could have been apologizing for that at Hollow Bastion then reiterated it fully in Betwixt and Between. That is not a stretch because Kairi was indeed not with him at HB.

Well, yeah, that bit's obvious. But that wasn't my point. My point was, even if Axel didn't have Kairi, if he intended to turn Sora into a Heartless, he'd have a lot more to gain by letting Sora think that he still had Kairi. Or, alternatively, imply that he (or Saix) did something terrible and permanent to her.

That's another thing that bothers me about Axel. For example Xigbar and Xenmas are confirmed to be important to birth by sleep. Xenmas more so then anybody. Yet their character development is really, really, pathetic compared to Axel who is not important to the overall KH mythos. It's favoritism and whoring and thus bad story-telling.

However, if Axel is who I think he is,points to sig, then the constant whoring for three games would be justified.If not then its again bad storytelling. Putting favoritism ahead of a coherent plot is never a good thing.Also if the other members had even a bit near the character development of Axel then they to would be seen in a shade of gray more easily as well,but because of the Axel whoring that's impossible. Thus not fair to really blame them for their lack of sympathetic character development. Blame Nomura.

Days has started to make me think that the one-sidedness of the Organization was done for a reason.

Think about it - Nobodies don't have hearts, so they react based on memories of what they would have done when they actually did have one. But nobody really knows themselves well enough to consider all of the nuances of their behavior. It actually makes a lot of sense that they'd focus on their defining traits a bit too much and end up becoming Flanderized versions of their Others.

Roxas, Namine, and Xion avoid that, of course, because they're special Nobodies. And it's very strongly implied that something happened to Axel in Castle Oblivion that changed him - so, regardless of whether he's the same person as anyone not named "Lea" (which I find doubtful), his unusual amount of characterization does have a plot-based purpose.

[fantasy08]

I'm not excusing Axel for something I wouldn't excuse anyone else for. I'm excusing Axel for something that a lot of human characters have already been excused for.

Sora, Yensid, and the rest of the good guys don't seem to value the life of nobodies all that much.However Sora might agree they don't feel,but he didn't kill them because they were nobodies. However, you seem to not be getting that it's not Axel's killing of his comrades that's the problem. If that was the case I would dislike Sora and I don't. It's the way, THE WAY, that he did it. It was sadistic and uncalled for.Nobody or not my human morals were disgusted by how they died, and even more disgusted by the one who was responsible for it.

Axel's willing to be a lot more blatant about his disrespect for Nobody life, of course, but that's where the lack of heart comes in - he lacks a sense of revulsion for the imagery itself that would cause a normal person to avoid killing Nobodies like that.

If the game is to be believed then Axel had human emotions when he went to castle oblivion. So that makes what went on in there even more deplorable since he alone had a human conscience.

Well, Axel's use of Sora mostly involved letting him free so he could do what he'd normally do anyway. Same with his use of Namine.Kidnapping Kairi can't really be defended, though, I agree.

He didn't do it out of the goodness of his non-existent heart either.Ends don't justify the means.

So you're basically admitting that you're ignoring Axel's entire portrayal by the series because you don't like him?Think what you want about Axel's actions in Castle Oblivion - evil actions, evil person, whatever. Once you start saying that Axel's fate is karmic retribution, you deny everything that the character is and do a good deal of harm to every theme and parallel that he's involved in.

Where are you getting this? I never said I didn't like Axel in my post. He's not my favorite character true, but I don't 100% dislike him. However, since were on the subject.I see him like this. Re:Com Axel don't like at all. Iffy/neutral on Days Axel. Kh2 Axel was okay. The bigger question is why do you think that I must absolutely abhor Axel since I have a negative opinion of some of the things he has done.It seems like you think that a person can't like and dislike a character. It has to be compete dislike or complete like. Your logic is just a tad to fan-girly.

Love Axel all you want, but stop making excuses or outright ignoring his faults. Basically trying to make him into a little misunderstood angel when he's not. The reason why I said his death was karma is because he caused a bunch of the stuff he did, especially in Days, on himself.

Do you honestly think that 358/2 Days is supposed to be "the story of two best friends and that jerk who hangs around with them and ruins everything?" Seriously?

Well, I wouldn't put it quite like that. Like I said Axel could have avoided a lot of stuff that happened to him. I think its crazy that people are even calling Roxas a bad friend now because of how he treated Axel. Which in reality Axel was the poisonous friend not Roxas.

To me, the word "evil" is something that defines the essence of whatever it's attached to. Using it to describe a person is equivalent to saying, "evil is so important to his character that he would not be recognizable without it."

I don't like the word evil either. I usually use bad to describe someone who's morals are a little screwed up, but hasn't crossed my idea of the moral event horizon yet. However, I won't hesitant to apply it to someone who destroyed their own world and tried to kill their best-friend or to someone who sadistically killed his own comrades. Nobody or not. Kh1 Riku and Re:com Axel were evil to me.

Here's a secret - I see them as anti-heroes too. That's the thing that bugs me, actually. You're not treating them like anti-heroes. You're treating them like villains.

Maybe I should have made myself a little more clearer then. Kh1 Riku and Re:com Axel are not anti-heroes to me. They are villains. Days and Kh2 Riku was an anti-hero. Axel became one to me in Kh2 as well.

The higher Nobodies had a sense of self, too, yet no one valued their lives all too highly, either.

True, but Sora's actions toward them wasn't about them being makeshift humans, but more like I'm the hero. I see these guys doing bad things. So I have to stop them. Then he destroyed them in self defense. He didn't go out of his way to do so just because their nobodies. The same cannot be said about Axels' treatment of Vexen, Zexion or the Riku Replica.

If he was as driven by the need for feelings as you think, he'd never be anywhere near as inconsistent as he is.

Yes, he was driven by the need to feel.As all nobodies are. I think his dying words even more confirmed that. Unfortunately Axel found his need to feel fulfilled through Roxas, and thus it became half friendship/half obsession. Roxas was his drug. He cared about him yes. I never said he didn't,but Axel has never done anything if it wouldn't benefit him as well.Days even more showed this. Even his death benefited him. He got to see Roxas again. Roxas was his friend,but he had something that Axel wanted.The ability to make him feel.Thus Axel did everything in his power, regardless if it was not something Roxas wanted, to keep him.

Saying that Roxas chose to return to Sora doesn't feel right to me, though. DiZ tricked him into opening Sora's pod by using Roxas' hatred for him and what he did. It makes much more sense to me that, after that happened, it was simply too late for Roxas to do anything - the only other option is that Roxas changed his mind completely for no reason.Xion gave herself up for the greater good. Roxas never did. Roxas was never even allowed to understand why he would have a reason to give himself up until he'd already joined with Sora, since everyone was so intent on making his decision for him.

Diz, especially Diz, and Riku's methods for awakening Sora were not right. However, Roxas is a good person. He is Sora after all. So he joined him even if it was in resignation. Sora needed to wake up. Roxas was keeping that from happening. However,Riku and Diz are still in the ends don't justify the means category.

Days has started to make me think that the one-sidedness of the Organization was done for a reason.

Yes. There's a reason. It's called blatant fan-service were Axel is concerned. I'm looking for BBS to prove me wrong, and that Axel will have something to do with the overall KH mythos that will justify him being spattered all over three games among other things. However, this is Nomura were talking about so my hope is slim.

Roxas, Namine, and Xion avoid that, of course, because they're special Nobodies. And it's very strongly implied that something happened to Axel in Castle Oblivion that changed him - so, regardless of whether he's the same person as anyone not named "Lea" (which I find doubtful), his unusual amount of characterization does have a plot-based purpose.

Xion isn't a nobody, and Axel met Sora in castle oblivion. That was the change. A change that was in motion before he even went there thanks to Roxas. He even said so to him after-wards,but of course Roxas didn't know who he was talking about.

Anyway, our debate has been fun and enlightening, but this will be my last post on the subject since I'm a bit puckered out.Ciao. :)

[8298906]

well it depends on the members Larxene is evil and the way they do things.

[Guilded.Raven]

And, (i know i'm gonna SHOOT myself for saying this later!) I do admit that I kinda half to agree with you Re:CoM Axel.
He was sadistic.
However, that's the thing. you even said that after KH2, he became more of an anti-hero. That only shows that his character developed more and more. Leaning less to the more moster-like Re:CoM Axel and more to the more human KH2 Axel. It shows that he began to change.

Now, don't take this as me saying that his "end justifies his actions". No, you're right about that one. However, it does help with character development.

[Ikkin]

You know, it really frustrates me when someone leaves an argument with misinterpretations of my arguments that make me sound bad. =/

I'll try to be short and just clear up misconceptions. Please forgive me if I go a bit overboard.

Originally Posted by fantasy08

If the game is to be believed then Axel had human emotions when he went to castle oblivion. So that makes what went on in there even more deplorable since he alone had a human conscience.

No, the game suggested that Axel had human emotions when he returned from Castle Oblivion, and that he had gained them at some point while he was away.

He looks kind of uncomfortable when Sora calls him out for killing Vexen - but that discomfort seems to be aimed at the fact that he was able to do something like that without caring.

He didn't do it out of the goodness of his non-existent heart either.Ends don't justify the means.

Didn't suggest he had good motives. Just that it Axel's plan caused no harm (and a fair amount of good) to Sora, and didn't force Sora to do anything that he didn't want to do, which seems kind of neutral to me.

Where are you getting this? I never said I didn't like Axel in my post. He's not my favorite character true, but I don't 100% dislike him. However, since were on the subject.I see him like this. Re:Com Axel don't like at all. Iffy/neutral on Days Axel. Kh2 Axel was okay. The bigger question is why do you think that I must absolutely abhor Axel since I have a negative opinion of some of the things he has done.It seems like you think that a person can't like and dislike a character. It has to be compete dislike or complete like. Your logic is just a tad to fan-girly.

Love Axel all you want, but stop making excuses or outright ignoring his faults. Basically trying to make him into a little misunderstood angel when he's not. The reason why I said his death was karma is because he caused a bunch of the stuff he did, especially in Days, on himself.

You never said you didn't like Axel outright, but I had assumed that you knew what you meant when you referenced the Moral Event Horizon. The very point of a character crossing the Moral Event Horizon is that it's impossible to like a character who's crossed that line ever again.

Ambivalence is a perfectly good stance to take on a character like Axel. To me, though, uncharitable interpretations of characters don't count as ambivalence. But we seem to be arguing past each other anyway.

You seem to misunderstand that I do not think, in any way, that what Axel did in Castle Oblivion was right. In fact, I feel that what he did was very bad and he should feel bad. I just don't think it's right to reduce his whole character to one word because of it.

Well, I wouldn't put it quite like that. Like I said Axel could have avoided a lot of stuff that happened to him. I think its crazy that people are even calling Roxas a bad friend now because of how he treated Axel. Which in reality Axel was the poisonous friend not Roxas.

Calling Roxas a bad friend, calling Axel a bad friend - they're just two sides of the same coin.

People always need somebody to blame. It's comforting to think bad things wouldn't happen if there isn't a bad guy messing things up.

But, doing that denies the real tragedy of Days - Roxas, Xion and, yes, Axel all do what seems right given what they know. But, since they all know different things, they all hurt each other terribly.

It's easy to do, though - putting yourself in Roxas' shoes makes Axel look really bad, and putting yourself in Axel's shoes makes Roxas look really bad. Xion mostly escapes because self-sacrifice is hard to see as anything other than noble.

Maybe I should have made myself a little more clearer then. Kh1 Riku and Re:com Axel are not anti-heroes to me. They are villains. Days and Kh2 Riku was an anti-hero. Axel became one to me in Kh2 as well.

Okay, they're not anti-heroes. But they're not pure villains, either. They're anti-villains.

However, Roxas is a good person. He is Sora after all. So he joined him even if it was in resignation.

"Roxas is a good person, so he must have joined with Sora willingly (the fact that he had just attempted to beat DiZ to death with a giant key for suggesting the same thing not one minute before doesn't contradict this at all)."

Isn't that what you accused me of doing?

Yes. There's a reason. It's called blatant fan-service were Axel is concerned. I'm looking for BBS to prove me wrong, and that Axel will have something to do with the overall KH mythos that will justify him being spattered all over three games among other things. However, this is Nomura were talking about so my hope is slim.

Go right ahead and ignore the potential justification for Axel's screen-time that ties him right into the overall KH mythos, then. It's obviously really nothing but fanservice. -_-