Is Org XIII really THAT bad?

[Ikkin]

Originally Posted by Marly

Not to mention, they probably didn't see their actions as evil, they couldn't feel guilt, if no one had emotions, no one would be able to judge what was right or wrong. Just saying.

Axel kind of disproves this idea in one of his Secret Reports in 358/2 Days:

Spoilers

He realizes that using Riku-Replica like a tool the way he did was wrong, since he wasn't all that different from Xion (who Axel definitely thought should not be used as a tool).

It goes to show that Nobodies can judge what's right and what's wrong - they just don't feel guilty if they act badly.

Spoilers

Not that Axel doesn't start to contradict that, too...

[*TwilightNight*]

Axel isn't the best example to use if you want to prove emotions or judgment, to be honest, for the very reason that he contradicts it. Especially by the point in time he wrote that Secret Report.

He was just the same as the rest of them otherwise before he met Roxas, if CoM wasn't a clue.

[XYZ]

Overall, the members of Organization XIII were told that they were working together to summon/create Kingdom Hearts in order to regain their lost Hearts.

Buuuuuuuut, what was actually going on was:

Spoilers

Xemnas was using the Organization so that once Kingdom Hearts was finally theirs (his), he would use its power to become a god and then reshape existence in his image.

Other individuals within the Organization also seemed to stray from their set plans, like almost every member who was sent to Castle Oblivion, and they all acted rather nasty about it as well. Some examples include Marluxia and Larxene's plot to use Sora, Zexion and Lexeaus' plot to use Riku, Axel killing Vexen, Xaldin's tormenting of the Beast, Demyx stealing the Olympus Stone, Luxord cursing Jack Sparrow with the Aztec Gold, etc. All of these really had nothing to do with their ideal goal of reaching Kingdom Hearts and were just really mean things to do.. They are villains for a reason.

[destinykh]

Xaldin's tormenting of the Beast, Demyx stealing the Olympus Stone, Luxord cursing Jack Sparrow with the Aztec Gold, etc

They do connect to the goal of Kingdom Hearts. If Beast turns into a powerful Heartless and Nobody, the Org would be able to use the Nobody as its underling, while they can use Sora to defeat the Beast Heartless, whose powerful heart would be a massive contribution to Kingdom Hearts. Demyx needed the Olympus Stone to investigate the Underworld without being drained of his strength. Luxord most likely wanted to experiment with darkness of heart, and using the Gold to get people to submit to the greed within themselves would cause them to become Heartless, and Sora will destroy those Heartless, once more completing Kingdom Hearts.

Zexion and Lexeaus were reacting to Marluxia and Larxene's plot. Marluxia wanted Sora to take down Xemnas, the underground members needed Riku to stop Marluxia's plan, and forced him to submit to darkness because that's Riku at his strongest. Axel killing Vexen was a neccessary evil to infiltrate Marluxia's scheme.

If anything, the ones who are truly in it for power are Xemnas, Marluxia, Larxene and now from Days, Saix. The rest are just misguided beings who wanted hearts, while in the case of the 5 apperentices of Ansem the Wise, they also wanted to continue their experiments with darkness of heart.

[Chaos_Riku]

Saiz is the one that surprised me the most. In KH2 I got the impression he was Xemnas' lap dog, but after Days he gave me a new impression.

Spoilers

Especially when he was tlaking to Axel about not knowing Xemnas' true goal, and what other things xemnas may not be telling them.

[Ж€§ᾏ₦]

It would depend... the idea sounds good but the actual intent is questionable

[Riku191]

yes there bad / end thread how many times ahs this been done ? p_p

[Neku's nobody]

Originally Posted by Chaos_Riku

Saiz is the one that surprised me the most. In KH2 I got the impression he was Xemnas' lap dog, but after Days he gave me a new impression.

Spoilers

Especially when he was tlaking to Axel about not knowing Xemnas' true goal, and what other things xemnas may not be telling them.

after days i saw him as more the victim that the true villain since he was just in it for getting his heart back but the way he treated Xion and roxas led me to think that he was just as evil as xemnas at first

[Beyer]

I don't like to think of them as evil because all they wanted was a heart and Sora is wrong to have destroyed them. However, I think certain members only lied about wanting a heart so that they could get KH for themselves.(Xemnas and maybe Marluxia and Larxene. Could really be anyone...)

I wonder, in recruitment did they mention that they were going to use KH? Because if the person that recruited certain member only said that they had "ways" or something then we would know that certain member is legit but we don;t see any of them join the organization so yea...

Off topic: My heart skipped a beat when I say TwilightNight's pic. It is THE perfect Roxas!!!!!!!

[terra99032]

Originally Posted by MasterLukeS

Organization members themselves may not all be bad. However, the purpose of the Organization is bad, whether or not most of the members even know the final purpose or not is another issue.

They weren't bad, they just wanted to be whole. they may have been deluded and somewhat evil. but not sinister

[terra99032]

Originally Posted by PrimeTime

they werent vicious with their ways but they werent right about it tryna take kingdom hearts

Yeah they kind got a little carried away. first all they wanted were hearts. then they said, "hold on, we could have the biggest thing, kingdom hearts".

[Ikkin]

Originally Posted by Beyer

I don't like to think of them as evil because all they wanted was a heart and Sora is wrong to have destroyed them.

Why does "Organization XIII is not truly evil" have to mean "Sora was wrong to kill them?" Sora only killed out of self-defense - and self-defense works as a justification regardless of where an enemy stands on the moral spectrum. (Think about it this way - if you're fighting in a war, and someone's shooting at you, does the fact that the other guy's probably a normal guy just like you make it wrong to shoot back?)

I wonder, in recruitment did they mention that they were going to use KH? Because if the person that recruited certain member only said that they had "ways" or something then we would know that certain member is legit but we don;t see any of them join the organization so yea...

Xemnas didn't tell Roxas up front, but it's hard to generalize from him. XD;

I doubt that he did, though, since he seems to avoid giving out any more information to the neophyte members than he absolutely has to. Plus, mentioning the Kingdom Hearts plan before they had a Keybearer to collect hearts for them wouldn't have been a very good idea.

[baconbits]

Originally Posted by UnstoppableSound

Yes the Organization was evil. Everyone seems to sympathize for them because they had a couple good seeds within their ranks (Roxas, Xion....that's about it). And no, we can't say for sure if Axel was considered a "good guy" because who knows what he did in his past to become a Nobody, especially since he had ties to Saix.

I really don't think it's fair to judge Axel based on how he was as a somebody. I think, if anything, he is significantly different from his somebody especially since Roxas joined. You can't pin his somebody's actions on him

Xemnas and the other five members who established the Organization became Nobodies because they wanted to abandon the so-called "shackles of emotion" that a heart would carry.

So you are saying that the original members became nobodies because they wanted to, and they didn't want a heart? But that's stupid because why would they want to turn right back around and thrive to have hearts so much?

Originally Posted by Marly

Definitely this.


It's a pretty opinionated question to ask if they were truly bad. To me, they weren't. Well, like blt said, mostly misguided by Xemnas. Not to mention, they probably didn't see their actions as evil, they couldn't feel guilt, if no one had emotions, no one would be able to judge what was right or wrong. Just saying.

One thing i thought in Days, was that even though they brought up often that none of them could feel, I often noticed the Organization making claims and statements that wouldn't be reasonable to make if one didn't have a heart (did I word that right? let me know if its confusing and I'll try again). On my second play-through of Days I'll find some specifics

Also, the more I think about it, it would be hard for the KH staff to make characters that "can't feel" and try to develop the plot for Days through them. Since they are real people with hearts making the game, they don't know what somebody without one would say exactly

[UnstoppableSound]

Originally Posted by baconbits

I really don't think it's fair to judge Axel based on how he was as a somebody. I think, if anything, he is significantly different from his somebody especially since Roxas joined. You can't pin his somebody's actions on him

That is true. Axel probably did change once he became a nobody. However, that's assumption once again, and since we don't know enough about his history, we can't assume he was better or worse before.

So you are saying that the original members became nobodies because they wanted to, and they didn't want a heart? But that's stupid because why would they want to turn right back around and thrive to have hearts so much?

That's exactly what I'm saying. In fact, that is what the game tells us. They intentionally were consumed by darkness so that they could escape the "shackles of the heart" that Saix mentions. However, once they did do so, they realized that there are some things you cannot do without a heart, and therefore sought a way to not only regain their hearts, but obtain the power of Kingdom Hearts (also mentioned in the game itself).

[*TwilightNight*]

Originally Posted by UnstoppableSound

That's exactly what I'm saying. In fact, that is what the game tells us. They intentionally were consumed by darkness so that they could escape the "shackles of the heart" that Saix mentions. However, once they did do so, they realized that there are some things you cannot do without a heart, and therefore sought a way to not only regain their hearts, but obtain the power of Kingdom Hearts (also mentioned in the game itself).

Those were only said for the Apprentices: the first six. Not everyone else. Nomura mentioned it, from what I can remember. The one who wrote it was Xaldin, I believe. And guess what he is? In the end, the report is still in his opinion. So what he thinks isn't exactly what the rest of his past colleagues would think before they all befell Darkness. All they have in common is that they chose the same path before knowing the consequences.